[kleet]

[briannabanana]

I was on the rescue too. I can't tell you how glad we were to see you guys smiling and warmed up again. I was one of 4 who helped to carry out your gear- the one with the pigtails and the white helmet. You guys are incredible. My heart goes out to your courage and teamwork. You are role models for us all. Your good spirits were contagious after long days of frustration- that we couldn't get to you because of the avalanche terrain. Please also know that we were doing everything that we could. We even tried to get a blackhawk to you. We were even in the process of brining in a charge to blast away that last avalanche slope. Also, did you ever find the GPS? We were pretty sure that we put it in the Bora 80... but that wasn't ever confirmed. I tried to get the important stuff out of the cache and back to you so that it wouldn't get all wet and gnarly. Anyways, I just wanted to check in on you- I hope that your feet heal quickly, and that you learned a lot on your intro to snow trip The very best wishes and happy holidays, Brianna briannahartzell@gmail.com

[CC]

I just need to defend the NWAC here as Quark gives the impression that this group may have gotten their bogus weather forcast from NWAC. Let me preface this by saying I live at Stevens Pass so I pay a lot of attention to the forcasts, and actually measure snowfall and precip, and NWAC's forcasts are always the most accurate. The particular forcast Quark linked to was spot on. It predicted .5-.75" precip from 4 AM sat till 4 AM sun at passes, which is exactly what we got (0.78"). Since it was cold that corresponded to about 16" of dry snow. It also predicted moderate to heavy snow sunday turning to rain in passes mon AM, which is exactly what happened (precip prediction for sun-mon, in saturdays forcast, was also right on). It also predicted extreme avalanche danger for sunday which would have been another clue not to be out there. So if they got their bogus forcast from looking at NWAC site it was because they didn't know how to interpret it

[GeoHiker]

Quarks link to the friday forecast gave no bogus weather forecast. It predicted what basicialy happened. Light- moderate snow Sat. afternoon to heavy by Sat. night. If you turned on the tv or radio on Friday every station was predicting snow for the lowlands starting Sat. I listened to NOAA forecasts friday and sat morn. and I have never heard so many warnings. Maybe the "sky is falling" disaster scenarios are making us blind to really paying attention to the weather. The tv stations sure play that up, so it gets old after awhile. I know it's better to error on the safe side, but if I see disaster man (Jim Foreman) standing beside the freeway in the bitter cold (32 degrees) one more time I'm going to puke. It will be interesting to see the follow up on this trip. I hope someone on the trip stops by here and reports back. Thank you Brianna for giving us a first hand account of what could have been a very bad situation. It's comforting to know we have such fine dedicated people willing to give their all to help the less fortunate. My hat is off to the wonderful SAR.

[More Cowbell]

I'm finding all these threads very interesting and it got me to thinking about all the guide books out there. Due to many trips to the Goodwill, I own almost every one printed for our state. Of course today I cannot seem to locate my snowshoe routes book but after checking 5 random hiking guides (2 of which had Melakwa in them) and 4 different publishers I have noticed a huge lack of information for winter hiking. Most guides give October as the end of the season. I checked all the introductions and none have any avalanche info or warnings. But most do say to prepare for winter weather at any time of the year. The Snowshoe Route (Dan Nelson) book does have a ton of info in the front but it seems these hikers weren't planning on using snowshoes so why would they have read up on this book ? Prior to finding this site, I never would have considered hiking or snowshoeing in the winter as it was a big unknown for me. But I did read my hiking guides obsessively, so when I started snowshoeing, I bought the book right away and got very intimidated by the whole avalanche thing and bought more books on snow travel. But that's me and I'm cautious. Your average Seattle Joe Hiker may just own the Alpine Lakes book (if that). You read the elevation and mileage (if that) and decide what sounds doable and invision the fun you will have in the snow. My point is, that maybe it's time for all these guide books to put avalanche info into the introduction and the hiking stats. Like a rating of 1-5 of how avalanche prone the hike is in the winter. Maybe they don't because of some legal/liability issue or it costs too much to print those extra words but it makes sense to me. I know from years of reading books and several years of internet hiking forums to check for conditions but the "common hiker' doesn't necessarily know this or know how important it is. Yes, every year this kind of incident is on the news but not everyone pays attention to the news, reads the introductions to the hiking guides, stops at the ranger stations or checks on the web. I'm not sure it's possible to educate everyone but most people use a guide book to get to a hike (at least the first time there). Does anyone know if the new Dan Nelson: Day Hiking Snoqualmie Region: Cascade Foothills/I-90 Corridor/Alpine Lakes book has avalanche/weather forcast info? I don't have any of these books as they haven't shown up in the thrift stores yet.

[Eric]

You people are far too nice. He completely misstates the forecast, implying incompetence, ignorance or poor reading comprehension. The stated "adequate" gear would be dubious at best for general winter conditiona and was laughibly inadequate for the forecast. And then this is ostensibly a trip to teach beginners how to deal with winter conditions under these circumstances? The decision-making is absolutely atrocious. That said, this guy- and his party- is not the first or last group to make moronic decisions which get them into trouble. I'd say live and learn normally and I generally try not to criticize too much because we all make mistakes, plus there are some things you can't control. But the message that was posted is just so ridiculous it can't be ignored. What makes this conduct particularly egregious is that he takes such a blase attitude about these errors and tries to pass it off as some sort of grand adventure. A grand adventure is when a group of willing adventurers have the skill and courage to pull something impressive off. When you get yourself stranded, can't get out under your own power with your own gear, and have to imperil others in SAR and on those helicopters to save yourself it is no longer an adventure but a big f###. When other people have to endanger themselves in a chopper and on foot to save you, you've ceased to be an adventurer. Someone needs to take some snowshoes and slap this dumbass upside the head with them before he gets himself or others rescued for [at least] the third time.

[Matt]

MC, I agree that there is a real problem with people using summer hiking guides for winter travel. However, I think that putting a section on winter weather and avalanches in the hiking guides might be exactly the wrong solution. I think people would see the section on winter travel, and then assume that the rest of the body of the book applies to winter as well as summer travel. But that's where people go wrong. The summer trail descriptions can be very wrong, even sometimes deadly wrong, for winter travel. Many of the summer trail routes cross right through major avalanche zones. But you're exactly right to say that every hiking guide should mention winter travel. I would prefer that they state, in big bold red letters, that these guides are only for summer travel, and should NOT be used for winter. Instead, for winter travel, people need training in winter weather and avalanche safety, and should only use route descriptions specifically designed for winter travel. If there's anyone reading this thread who doesn't know it already, please do not ever assume that summer trail routes are safe for winter travel. Some of them really do go through dangerous avalanche zones. Please don't go out unless you know how and where to find safer routes.

[GeoHiker]

You bring up some valid points MC. The general hiking books are directed towards the hiking season. June-Oct. so they really don't go out of their way towards covering the fringe season. I think they could do more to emphasize the dangers that early spring, late fall can bring. The winter snowshoeing/XC books do cover the season well, so when is too much info too much? There is not a lack of info. anywhere if you care to take 10 mins. to look it up online. Maybe people go out blindly without a care I don't know. They weren't kidnapped, so they all had a say in the hike. We are ultimately responsible for ourselves when it comes right down to it. Leerunion bailed, so there was some common sense out there.

[GeoHiker]

Eric, the intial post you read was a repost of one of the group members Chris. This was not the leader of the group. The 3-5 inches of snow must have been the lowland forcast. I don't know of any mountain forcast that didn't state heavy dumping of snow in the mountains. PS, Eric did you read the other trip report to Martin Lake in Oct? What a cluster #$%^ that could have turned into. Someone needs to hit a few of them upside the head and not with snowshoes!

[Quark]

[More Cowbell]

Here's their winter preparedness page that the leader told them to read. Snowshoes are mentioned in the posts but I don't see them being required. I don't see any kind of emergency shelter requirement listed here either, but there is some useful info and links should people have chosen to use them.

[Stefan]

Humans make mistakes. Every human has ignorance. Sometimes the mistakes or ignorance ends in their death. This is just one other example. Sad to hear.

[gyngve]

I'm really curious of the group dynamics on this trip. Was it leadership by dictator? Were the "followers" must less experienced and defering decisions to the leader? At any points n the trip, did they discuss the option of turning around? If they chose to continue, why?

[Malachai Constant]

I think the problem is that many people do not appreciate that winter backpacking has far more in common with climbing than hiking. In winter conditions ultralight weight methods and equipment is almost always inappropriate. Weather can kill you rather quickly and with little warning. As others have mentioned trails disappear and can be death traps. Navigation is at least an order of magnitude more difficult. It is dark for most of the day. Equipment rather than being a convenience becomes a necessity for survival. A wrong decision which in the summer causes discomfort becomes life threatening. In the old days winter "hiking" was pretty much impossible except in lowlands but not modern equipment makes it possible but not safe. I still wonder if anyone was on the coast as there has been little communication there. When we took a circle A class from ski patrol the closing was always, "Remember all the experts are dead"

[Jerm]

Pardon, I'm not a regular poster here. I found this thread while looking for details about the avalanche incident(s) over the weekend. I am a skier first, climber second, and the only hiking I do I call approaching and generally do not relish. So, I come at this from a different perspective. Most BC skiers I know would never consider heading out in December, low snow or otherwise, without a transceiver, probe, shovel, and the knowledge of how to avoid avalanches and use their equipment. Period. Alpine skiers and boarders sometimes follow different rules, but pretty much everyone climbing/skinning for turns out there abides by this rule. I did not see this gear listed on the required gear list posted. As a climber, I have witnessed different attitudes toward avalanches. I think it comes from the fact that climbers are introduced to the sport in the summer, and generally don't encounter avalanche hazards unless they pursue bigger mountains. Even then, they are tied together, and some feel this is an adequate way to recover a buried partner. Still, many do not carry shovels when encountering snow, and many do not consider avalanches as teh biggest threat to their safety. They are focused on the climb, not the approach/descent. For me, I get all mixed up in these cross-over seasons when I may be climbing on snow. The skier in me is programmed to ALWAYS have that gear on me, even when the chance of avalanche is near zero. It's like driving on a open highway without a seatbelt. Yeah, I'll probably be fine, by why not just belt up? I think a similar thing happens with hikers. Compared to skiing, it is a low-commitment sport with little required gear or skill. In the summer, you could pick just about any random stranger off the bus and take them on a hike into fairly rugged terrain (like Denny Creek and Snow Lake Divide, for a relevant example). That's great, it is what makes it an activity accessible to many people. The problem is when people carry this attitude into winter, and simply enable themselves with one or two pieces of relatively inexpensive gear (snowshoes, and maybe some better clothing, which they may already have). I don't want to sound condescending, but that just is not enough. The Denny Creek trail and Snow Lake trails, and many others in the area, cross through some of the most active avalanche terrain in the country. And yet, both see regular winter traffic by parties that might as well have just stepped off the bus at Westlake Center. These attitudes need to change. It has slowly but surely been changing in the snowmobiling crowd, a user group that has been particularly hard hit by avalanche fatalities. It should happen with snowshoeing/hiking too. Don't even think about going into the mountains in winter without that gear and training. Don't give yourself the option, and don't give inexperienced people entering the sport the impression that they have that option, either. Retailers could help out immensely here. The snow safety gear section at gear shops should be front and center, and salespeople attending to beginners should explain the hazards and strongly encourage the purchase of the necessary gear AND TRAINING before heading out. Instead I see snowshoes marketed as an easy way to safe winter fun. When you give a tool like that to someone with the ability to get themselves deep into the backcountry, you end up with a dead hiker. That needs to stop.