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mossy mom
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PostSun Dec 09, 2007 6:08 pm 
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ONF is about to do some "thinning" up on the SKOK and what they cut will be turned into biodiesel.   Something about non native alder trees that NEED to be cut down.  WTF!?

This could be the end of our forests.   With lumber prices so low and fuel prices so high, the next step is to burn trees in our cars.  Oh yeah that's really green.
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yew
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 2:37 am 
Oly NF will not be scalped
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Pest,

Don't give into despair quite yet.  Olympic National Forest is still under the Northwest Forest Plan so much of it is off-limits to logging.  There are also many restrictions that limit logging in areas zoned as Matrix (which are supposedly zoned for an emphasis on timber) such as wide buffer zones.

It's highly unlikely the Olympic National Forest or any other National Forest will be sacrificed to the chainsaw for biofuel production.  There are other, more available sources for ethanol such as sugar, switchgrass and of course, corn.  I'd bet money that the Olympic National Forest will not become an ocean of stumps to produce ethanol.

However, I do wish someone could develop a technique to economically convert cellulose into ethanol.  That'd be great to pay for thinning and restoring open, park-like ponderosa pine forests across the West.  There's way too many stagnant, understory grand firs endangering large, mature and old-growth ponderosa pine trees above.  Many little trees (say, 4-8 inches diameter) must be removed to save big ponderosa pines from fire and disease.

The FS is probably "thinning" red alder from second-growth stands so all the trees left behind will grow larger faster and the stand will have a structure more similar to old-growth sooner.

Are they going to burn the red alder logs as "hogged fuel"?  If so, they've been doing that for years.  It comes and goes with the market.  Personally, I'd rather see wood being burned for electricity generation than wasted by burning in a slash pile.

Or...will the red alder logs be turned into ethanol (possibly to run vehicles)?  I hear that it's quite challenging to turn cellulose from logs into ethanol and keep it economically feasible.

Who says red alder trees are non-native to the Northwest?  Did the FS make this claim?  Perhaps you're confused about why the FS wants red alder out of the stand?  Red alder dies off after 60 years or so.  The FS silviculturist (the person who examines the forest stand and makes a recommendation on what to do with it in terms of structure and composition after given limitations by the many -ologists, forest plans and potential/probable litigation) may want to reduce the proportion of red alder in those stands so longer living conifers will dominate and possibly provide habitat for species like spotted owls.  But, this is pure speculation.

If you have anymore info on this please post it!

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mossy mom
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 11:38 am 
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They claimed that a non native species of Alder is in there.  Sounds like a load of B.S. to me.  Any excuse to cut the trees.  Yeah sure accelerate Old Growth Conditions.  They should leave the trees alone.  No matter how hard they try they can not grow moss in just 80 years, only big trees.    Alder is an important early succesional species that fixes nitrogen, once all that nitrogen has made the solid too acidic the alders dies and the conifers move in.

Everytime we "manage" nature we only mess it up. All nature needs from us is to leave it alone.

I hope you are right and that wood is not an economically viable source of bio fuels.
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 12:35 pm 
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pest, do you have a URL where any information on this can be found?
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mossy mom
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 12:59 pm 
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No I don't have a URL and I have been searching for more information online.  Yesterday when I was hiking down a logging road with a locked gate on it a man came speeding down the road he passed me several times as he had to turn around when ever he reached a wash out.  We both reached the gate at the same time.  It was dummy locked.    I chatted with him for a bit.  He is with a company the forest service has hired to fix some culverts and then do some "thinning" of so called non-native alders.  He also said there are birch trees there.   The road was 2353, it runs parallel to the South Fork of the Skokomish river.  To see the route I was hiking go to http://mosswalks.blogspot.com .   A lot of culverts are blown out and they will have to be fixed before the logging can start.  The company was already up there repairing culverts and then the storm hit and wiped out a bunch of culverts.  I would like to see that road de-commissioned past the turn off for the Dry creek and Dry creek extension trail.

The guy thought it was really a wonderful green thing to turn the trees into fuel.   Lumber prices are too low to bother with selling it to the saw mill.   That said the lumber trains are running non-stop today.
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Lono
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 1:34 pm 
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Aberdeen, WA is where they are putting a bio-fuels plant, right down on the Wishkah.  Did we think they were going to actually truck rapeseed over the pass and down to Aberdeen just to provide some desperately needed local jobs?  There will be other plants closer to rapeseed production on the east side of the state.

Aberdeen should be expected to process what's commonly referred to as "coastal Washington woody biomass" for "clean energy, economic development, and climate change mitigation."  Meaning, local wood.  Sounds terrific.  What trees, from where?  I have no idea.  Start by asking ColPac, http://www.colpac.org.  Much like the timber extraction industries of the past century, every local town has a hand in this.  Look out.
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mossy mom
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 1:43 pm 
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Lono wrote:
Aberdeen, WA is where they are putting a bio-fuels plant, right down on the Wishkah.  Did we think they were going to actually truck rapeseed over the pass and down to Aberdeen just to provide some desperately needed local jobs?  There will be other plants closer to rapeseed production on the east side of the state.

Aberdeen should be expected to process what's commonly referred to as "coastal Washington woody biomass" for "clean energy, economic development, and climate change mitigation."  Meaning, local wood.  Sounds terrific.  What trees, from where?  I have no idea.  Start by asking ColPac, http://www.colpac.org.  Much like the timber extraction industries of the past century, every local town has a hand in this.  Look out.

Climate change mitigation.. sigh..  Ok lets take all the carbon stored in our forests and put it directly into  the atmosphere by burning it in our cars.  Oh yeah I can see how that will help with global warming..
shakehead.gif


From WIKI:
Biodiesel is biodegradable and non-toxic, and typically produces about 60% less net-lifecycle (weasel word!) carbon dioxide emissions, as it is itself produced from atmospheric carbon dioxide via photosynthesis in plants. However, the smog forming hydrocarbon emissions are 35% greater, and the Nitrogen Oxide emissions are also substantially greater than those from petroleum-based diesel,[2][3] . While this figure can actually differ widely between fuels depending upon production and processing methods employed in their creation, biodiesel is not a panacaea for global warming.
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 2:13 pm 
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pest wrote:
They claimed that a non native species of Alder is in there

okay... prior to my previous posting, i spoke on the phone with staff people at both ONP and ONF ( primarily regarding other issues ).
neither of them knew anything about any "non native alders".
so: who is "they" and exactly what species of tree are you talking about?

i refuse to engage in a debate regarding biofuels production or 'global warming', and "wikipedia" has proven itself to be an unreliable source of information and is generally dismissed by the academic community.

talk to me about the trees. non-native? species? info source?
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mossy mom
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 2:21 pm 
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ski wrote:
pest wrote:
They claimed that a non native species of Alder is in there

okay... prior to my previous posting, i spoke on the phone with staff people at both ONP and ONF ( primarily regarding other issues ).
neither of them knew anything about any "non native alders".
so: who is "they" and exactly what species of tree are you talking about?

i refuse to engage in a debate regarding biofuels production or 'global warming', and "wikipedia" has proven itself to be an unreliable source of information and is generally dismissed by the academic community.

talk to me about the trees. non-native? species? info source?

I already stated that it sounds like a load of B.S.  Now you want me to "source" what I think is a load of B.S?  Not gonna happen.  Calling the alder non-native was an excuse to "thin" it.

They are going to do some "thinning" and they are going to sell the wood to a biofuels plant.  Who are they?  A contractor that ONF has hired.  Should not be too hard for you to figure out who has the contract to repair culverts and do "thinning" up on the Lower South Fork of the Skokomish.
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mossy mom
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 2:52 pm 
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If left alone  Alder will fall  in 60 years and succession will take place without our intervention.   Down woody debris is important as a carbon and nutrient source for the forest and it should not be carted off and burned in vehicles.  It needs to stay in the forest.   Yes we can grow big trees in just 80 years and create old growth structure but we can not create old growth function and composition in just 80 years.  It takes time to grow all that moss and develope canopy soils and other things that we only find in true old growth forests.
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 3:13 pm 
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okay okay.. I just got off the phone with ONF. the guy I talked with is the head honcho when it comes to timber harvesting on ONF lands.
1. there are no "non-native" alder species in ONF.
2. the project area is less than 200 acres, and is all plantation units.
3. the area was clear-cut in the 1950's.
4. the project ( on ONF lands ) is a selective thinning project to accelerate growth of ( historically ) predominant species and re-create "old growth" characteristics, and to restore and protect stream habitat.
5. the area is "checkerboard" ownership: every other section up there is owned by a private timber company ( who can do whatever they want with their own trees ).
6. none of the harvested timber in the project area ( or anywhere else on ONF lands, for that matter ) is destined for any "biofuels" plant. the wood harvested will go into lumber production.
7. timber sale revenues from the project will be put into road decommissioning projects.

( per BH/ONF/pers comm/121007/1400 hrs)
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MCaver
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 3:30 pm 
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ski wrote:
7. timber sale revenues from the project will be put into road decommissioning projects.

So they're cutting down trees so they can afford to quit giving access to them?  uhh.gif
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mossy mom
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 3:47 pm 
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MCaver wrote:
ski wrote:
7. timber sale revenues from the project will be put into road decommissioning projects.

So they're cutting down trees so they can afford to quit giving access to them?  uhh.gif

But first they are going to fix all the roads so they can get to the trees so they can cut them so they can get the money to close the roads.  Here is one of the things they will have to fix:


There are several washouts like this on the 2353 after the storm on  December 3.
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 6:08 pm 
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McCaver wrote:
So they're cutting down trees so they can afford to quit giving access to them?

no, not at all. but that is where the money will be going. insofar as "purpose and need" for the project, there were other reasons for the thinning. as a side benefit of the timber sales, revenues will be available for road decommissioning projects.

obviously if you're of the "zero cut" persuasion, this will probably still be an unacceptable proposal.
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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 10, 2007 6:44 pm 
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Ya know, you need to watch out when talking to folks in the woods.  A road contractor does not necessarily know what is going on and rumors, kind of like this thread, can run rampant in the woods.  A logger doesn't necessarily know what a road contractor down the road is up to or why either.  Now if you want to know what is really going on, talk to a log truck driver.  They always have the latest in what is going on and how to fix the world because they have lots of time to "think".   lol.gif And for those of us who are not log truck drivers, sometimes we get bored and like to take advantage of the tourii who ask us what is going on.  Sometimes the tourii questions demand a smart answer.  Such as, when the yarder is in plain site, "What is going on here?"   Answer, "Logging.'  The next question begs for some originality in the answer.  It is often "Why?"  Now the answer will depend on the mood of the logger.  Is it a rainy, windy, cold day when the trucks are not showing up and the crew is shorthanded?  The answer might could be a bit rude or something on the order of "Because we can."
If it is a pleasant day, the yarder is bringing in turns galore, trucks are showing up and leaving as planned, you might get the silvicultural prescription and NEPA quoted to you.   Well, you can see, it is easy to start rumors in the woods.
I do not mean to offend any log truck drivers out there.  You really are the go to people for rumor control!

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