Forum Index > Trip Reports > Mason-almost Defiance and flip flops in the snow 7/5/08
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Old Not Bold Hiker



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Old Not Bold Hiker
PostSat Jul 05, 2008 11:24 pm 
Bandera-Mason- turned around in trackless snow before Defiance. Favorite outfit was flip flops on bare feet in the snow just before the Mason lake creek crossing. Feet looked COLD and she did NOT look happy. I had micro-spikes still on at that point. stats.... 8:30am start with a sparse parking lot 4519 max altitude 2628 elevation gain approx 8-9 miles and much tromping in the snow routefinding. 6.5hours....trail finding in the trackless snow without GPS is SLOW. Even slower when someone is wiping out your route marks in the snow for the trip back. Nice flowers along the way.
More leopard lilys
More leopard lilys
Leopard lily in bloom
Leopard lily in bloom
Paint brush closeup
Paint brush closeup
Rain drops and flowers
Rain drops and flowers
And as has been mentioned, another good crop of bear grass
Looking a bit like the tropics....almost feeling that way....almost
Looking a bit like the tropics....almost feeling that way....almost
Bear grass standing out
Bear grass standing out
Bear grass through the leaves
Bear grass through the leaves
Bear grass and rocky slopes
Bear grass and rocky slopes
Bear grass rocks
Bear grass rocks
Looking up the Bandera climb, covered in Bear grass
Looking up the Bandera climb, covered in Bear grass
The Great White Egress blockade is looking like a sad shadow of its former glory, apparently even navigable with bare feet in flip flops.
Great White from above...almost sad looking now, compared to former glory
Great White from above...almost sad looking now, compared to former glory
Great white.  Starting to look small
Great white. Starting to look small
Mason lake is getting close to being thawed out, although not quite ready for a summer swim, apparently much to the suprise of many people, looking at how they were dressed.
Mason lake clearing a bit. Ice and air.
Mason lake clearing a bit. Ice and air.
Mason lake spots
Mason lake spots
Mason lake spots close
Mason lake spots close
Mason lake rain drops on water and sparkling on leaves.
Mason lake rain drops on water and sparkling on leaves.
Mason Lake 7/5/08 Thawing out
Mason Lake 7/5/08 Thawing out
Snow gets pretty thick but is well consolidated about halfway up the lake with only a few patches without snow after that.
Close up of intersection signs on 7/5
Close up of intersection signs on 7/5
Defiance Pratt Mason intersection on 7/05/08
Defiance Pratt Mason intersection on 7/05/08
I finally turned around, even though the microspikes were keeping my grip solid, as I was solo and the trail was more than vague with few landmarks, since it was socked with drizzle and fog, and I haven't hiked the trail enough to have the route memorized. Someone was thrashing through the underbrush and rock on the ridge above me and finally dropped down. He took great glee with wiping out the discreet scratches I put in the snow to find my way back(dind't know they were mine), claiming "flagging isn't legal in Wilderness", and apparently a scratch in SNOW that will be gone in a day or less is "flagging". No mention of his off trail disturbing of flora and fauna in Wilderness is technically "illegal". Or why actual flags are used on so many snowfields in Wilderness and places like Rainier. I made some excuse to let him go on ahead, as I have no need to hike with jerks that would get off by getting someone lost to prove their own arrogance, because THEY know the trail. Trail routefinding is certainly a challenge past the lake.
Mt Defiance trail turn around point.  I was getting down to one other quickly fading set of tracks. Seemed prudent not to solo further
Mt Defiance trail turn around point. I was getting down to one other quickly fading set of tracks. Seemed prudent not to solo further
Looking down the Defiance trail. Even tougher to track the trail covered in snow in on 7/5/2008
Looking down the Defiance trail. Even tougher to track the trail covered in snow in on 7/5/2008
Near my turn around point on the Defiance trail.  This spot looked vaguely familiar from previous summer hikes
Near my turn around point on the Defiance trail. This spot looked vaguely familiar from previous summer hikes
Take a deep breath and let the guy go back to his high impact campsite... Then it was just a matter of tromping down the knee hammering descent and watching the amazing summer outfits climb up the cool rainy trail. Probably not bad going UP while they are warm.
View from the "pass" on the ira spring trail on bandera before dropping down to Mason lake
View from the "pass" on the ira spring trail on bandera before dropping down to Mason lake
rain clouds fille the valley, then crept up the mountain
rain clouds fille the valley, then crept up the mountain
rain came in waves up the valley, starting as a rising cloud
rain came in waves up the valley, starting as a rising cloud
And of course one last stop at the waterfall before hitting the parking lot
burst of glory
burst of glory
See the face guarding the Abyss
See the face guarding the Abyss
Little Fall
Little Fall
Veiled rock on the lower falls
Veiled rock on the lower falls
What a rush!
What a rush!
Overall not a super long mileage hike, and once more since "flagging" or ANY way of tracking the trail over snowfields is "illegal", it was once again driving home how nice a GPS would be THIS year at least. (I may yet bite the bullet and get one someday). And the microSprikes are AWESOME.

friluftsliv
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EastKing
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EastKing
Surfing and Hiking
PostSat Jul 05, 2008 11:53 pm 
Quote:
Someone was thrashing through the underbrush and rock on the ridge above me and finally dropped down. He took great glee with wiping out the discreet scratches I put in the snow to find my way back(dind't know they were mine), claiming "flagging isn't legal in Wilderness", and apparently a scratch in SNOW that will be gone in a day or less is "flagging". No mention of his off trail disturbing of flora and fauna in Wilderness is technically "illegal". Or why actual flags are used on so many snowfields in Wilderness and places like Rainier.
What an a$%&*@e!!! Hmm. confused.gif confused.gif Marks in snow might mean safety, or someone is lost, or someone could be lost if the marking are erased. shakehead.gif shakehead.gif Not exactly things that should be erased or called "flagging". You should have gotten his name so you could sue the guy for getting you lost!! As for ladies in flip flops, no surprise there. I saw mostly tennis shoes and flip flops on the Little Si trail. Great TR and photos.

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puzzlr
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puzzlr
Mid Fork Rocks
PostSun Jul 06, 2008 3:10 am 
It's unbelievable that someone would do that! I'm not sure I would have kept my cool. rant.gif

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Middle E
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Middle E
no more moustache
PostSun Jul 06, 2008 10:05 am 
I think Brewmaster and I might have met you as we were coming down. I remember a solo hiker with microspikes in the flattish part of the ridge beween Mason Lake and Defiance. Although the summer trail is snow-covered for a good stretch, we were both reasonably familiar with the route (and had a couple of waypoints on David's GPS) and were able to make it to the summit. Our only problem was the switchback up to the ridge - we turned too early and had a short stretch of slippery and steep scrambling, but came out only 50' below the trail. Once on the ridge the way is more obvious, though still with stretches of snow in the woods. There was no view at all from the top. Glad you took some pictures, as we both forgot our cameras. up.gif up.gif As we were headed town the hordes were headed up - and I remember some flip flops! The beargrass on the open slopes below Bandera is thick in bloom.

pithy yet insightful signature
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Elvis
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Elvis
Shuffl'n
PostSun Jul 06, 2008 10:21 am 
Ditto on the jerk erasing your marks! I've been turned around on snow like that before and found that even leaving scratches or taking extra effort to leave identifiable marks in consolidated snow can be helpful, but you can still easily miss them. It's funny how other people can't envision that your tracks in consolidated snow aren't always obvious. I'm still in disbelief at that guy erasing your 'flags'. shakehead.gif Get real...

"Ill habits gather unseen degrees, as brooks make rivers, rivers run to seas." ~John Dryden My Trip List
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Old Not Bold Hiker



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Old Not Bold Hiker
PostSun Jul 06, 2008 10:35 am 
Middle E wrote:
I think Brewmaster and I might have met you as we were coming down. I remember a solo hiker with microspikes in the flattish part of the ridge beween Mason Lake and Defiance. Although the summer trail is snow-covered for a good stretch, we were both reasonably familiar with the route (and had a couple of waypoints on David's GPS) and were able to make it to the summit. Our only problem was the switchback up to the ridge - we turned too early and had a short stretch of slippery and steep scrambling, but came out only 50' below the trail. Once on the ridge the way is more obvious, though still with stretches of snow in the woods. There was no view at all from the top. Glad you took some pictures, as we both forgot our cameras. up.gif up.gif As we were headed town the hordes were headed up - and I remember some flip flops! The beargrass on the open slopes below Bandera is thick in bloom.
A couple of waypoints on a GPS would have REALLY helped. A GPS might be overkill for trails, but it sure would be nice with all the trails buried this year. I have no problem getting TOO something, its the getting back that concerns me. I remember you two coming down. Yes I was wearing the bright red microspikes....Sort hard to miss that color. eek.gif We need to develop a special NWhikers gang sign or somethin'. cool.gif I am sure I was following your tracks after that other group of people gave up. A little past the point where that creek comes seeping out of the snow and comes oozing over the rooty section of the summer trail, I either lost your tracks or they got REALLY faint. Thats the section that is sketchy even during the summer and I haven't done it enough to nail down where it passes over the ridge. No problem with traction up to the turnaround, but I am not sure how much steeper or icier or if it would make a diff with spikes....unless it was shear vertical ice...maybe. I have NO sense of direction. Bit of a handicap hiking. But I compensate with watch compass, regular compass, map work, some VERY discreet and temporary ways of marking trackless sections, and MUCH caution. If I do flag, you have to be looking for the flags and I make SURE I take the same way out and pick up EVERY one on the way out. I did use a couple micro-flags as waypoints on the trackless snow. He only spotted one of them and took it, which slowed me down further as I was "sweeping" the trail of flags on the way out and couldn't find one, finally figuring he had taken it. Consider I have been using the same chunk of about a yard of surveyor tape for the last 5 years and only go through it when I want "fresh" bits to use. I know THAT practice is questionable but it is compensating for a handicap. I also read an interesting article recently where the Forest Service was RECOMMENDING using full up wands/flags for going through snowfields, which I found suprising. The article was associated with someone getting lost. That sure was a constant stream of ill prepared people going up on our way down! Driving back down the dirt road wasn't too bad though, only having to dodge a couple of cars coming up, and I cruised right along, at least until I got stuck behind the ubiquitous snail-slow Subaru Outback literally crawling along going down. But I guess they were doing the best they could with what they had to work with for a car. moon.gif

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Tom
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Tom
Admin
PostSun Jul 06, 2008 12:14 pm 
Quote:
Someone was thrashing through the underbrush and rock on the ridge above me and finally dropped down. He took great glee with wiping out the discreet scratches I put in the snow to find my way back(dind't know they were mine), claiming "flagging isn't legal in Wilderness", and apparently a scratch in SNOW that will be gone in a day or less is "flagging".
Your initial version of events sounded so bizzarre I was skeptical this was the entire story.
Quote:
I did use a couple micro-flags as waypoints on the trackless snow. He only spotted one of them and took it
I see there was more to the story.
Quote:
I have NO sense of direction. Bit of a handicap hiking. But I compensate with watch compass, regular compass, map work, some VERY discreet and temporary ways of marking trackless sections, and MUCH caution. If I do flag, you have to be looking for the flags and I make SURE I take the same way out and pick up EVERY one on the way out.
Quite frankly, if you have NO sense of direction you shouldn't be out there alone. Inevitably someone will pull your flags and what are you going to do if you are alone, assuming you actually needed them in the first place? If you need flags to guide you back on a route like this you really need to develop your routefinding skills or find someone to hike with that has some sense of direction. The guy erasing your marks on the snow wasn't cool but if you were placing flags I can probably understand a little better why he did what he did.
Quote:
I know THAT practice is questionable but it is compensating for a handicap.
I suggest you indicate on your flags that you have a mental handicap because anyone finding them is probably wondering about that. I hesitate to recommend a GPS but if your handicap is as bad as you make it out to be it's probably better than placing flags.
Quote:
No mention of his off trail disturbing of flora and fauna in Wilderness is technically "illegal".
Really? I doubt it.
Quote:
Or why actual flags are used on so many snowfields in Wilderness and places like Rainier.
I can assure you they are not meant to guide people down with mental handicaps.

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Old Not Bold Hiker



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Old Not Bold Hiker
PostSun Jul 06, 2008 3:18 pm 
Tom wrote:
Quote:
Someone was thrashing through the underbrush and rock on the ridge above me and finally dropped down. He took great glee with wiping out the discreet scratches I put in the snow to find my way back(dind't know they were mine), claiming "flagging isn't legal in Wilderness", and apparently a scratch in SNOW that will be gone in a day or less is "flagging".
Your initial version of events sounded so bizzarre I was skeptical this was the entire story.
Quote:
I did use a couple micro-flags as waypoints on the trackless snow. He only spotted one of them and took it
I see there was more to the story.
Quote:
I have NO sense of direction. Bit of a handicap hiking. But I compensate with watch compass, regular compass, map work, some VERY discreet and temporary ways of marking trackless sections, and MUCH caution. If I do flag, you have to be looking for the flags and I make SURE I take the same way out and pick up EVERY one on the way out.
Quite frankly, if you have NO sense of direction you shouldn't be out there alone. Inevitably someone will pull your flags and what are you going to do if you are alone, assuming you actually needed them in the first place? If you need flags to guide you back on a route like this you really need to develop your routefinding skills or find someone to hike with that has some sense of direction. The guy erasing your marks on the snow wasn't cool but if you were placing flags I can probably understand a little better why he did what he did.
Quote:
I know THAT practice is questionable but it is compensating for a handicap.
I suggest you indicate on your flags that you have a mental handicap because anyone finding them is probably wondering about that. I hesitate to recommend a GPS but if your handicap is as bad as you make it out to be it's probably better than placing flags.
Quote:
No mention of his off trail disturbing of flora and fauna in Wilderness is technically "illegal".
Really? I doubt it.
Quote:
Or why actual flags are used on so many snowfields in Wilderness and places like Rainier.
I can assure you they are not meant to guide people down with mental handicaps.
Tom, I am SHOCKED you are an site admin with the attitude you toss down at people on a fairly regular basis. What the hell was that diss session above? I was TRYING to be as kind as possible about the trail situation, even playing up my "weak points". Maybe that was you out there...you certainly have the right attitude for it. He did NOT know about the flagging when we first met since he wasn't on the trail up to that point. If you even want to call my temp microdots that, when he was snickering and wiping out the snow scratches. My route was marked mainly in snow scratches. If enough people came along to "naturally" wipe them out, I wouldn't need them anymore. My micro"flags" (I used 4) are too tiny to write on being about 1inch long and not suriviving my return trip and I have only used them a couple times in the last 5 years or so. I was also trying to follow the ACTUAL trail route, which should HELP with narrowing dispersed impact. I am not a total retard as you are implying. You will note that I let him go ahead, because to quote Mark Twain, "I don't truck with no trash". Note I managed to find my way back even though he found some of my discreet scratches and ONE flag and wiped them out. I did NOT push further than I was comfortable, finding my way back on my own. I also carry a PLB. I would hike with more people and avoid solo, if I didn't come across too many people like that guy and you. I am sorry if I missed the Rule of the Great Outdoors that only people with a Godlike sense of direction and ability to find their way off trail blindfolded are allowed outdoors. My handicap may be that I don't have a good sense of direction, which I can at least compensate for with a variety of backup plans, but at least I am not handicapped with an incredibly arrogant attitude like SOME people, which is innate and cannot be compensated for. shakehead.gif And I realize that ripping along off-trail, even though technically NOT allowed in the Wilderness, is a sanctioned and encouraged activity on this forum, albeit only for a Special Few. I just didn't realize reasonable compromise was a one way street and reasonable exceptions to general rules are only allowed for the Special People of the Inner Core. Thanks for putting it in perspective Tom. You have such insight and ability to reason things out. dizzy.gif

friluftsliv
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Tom
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Tom
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PostMon Jul 07, 2008 12:22 pm 
Sorry Boot Up. First you made it sound like you weren't flagging at all and got everyone worked up about someone erasing your tracks for no reason. Then you fess up to flagging your route with "micro flags" (whatever that means). Then you claim you have a "handicap" that justifies your usage of flagging. Then you go off about lesser? "ill prepared" people on your way down, having to dodge other cars on your way out (presumably a problem with their driving not yours), and complaining about being stuck behind someone in a Subaru driving too slowly. I apologize for my apparent arrogance (maybe you can point it out in my reports), but it just all kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

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Yet
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PostMon Jul 07, 2008 12:29 pm 
You're such a troublemaker, Tom. Maybe you should ban yourself for 24 hours. clown.gif wink.gif biggrin.gif boot up, no pics of the flipflops??

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Old Not Bold Hiker



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Old Not Bold Hiker
PostMon Jul 07, 2008 1:30 pm 
Tom wrote:
Sorry Boot Up. First you made it sound like you weren't flagging at all and got everyone worked up about someone erasing your tracks for no reason. Then you fess up to flagging your route with "micro flags" (whatever that means). Then you claim you have a "handicap" that justifies your usage of flagging. Then you go off about lesser? "ill prepared" people on your way down, having to dodge other cars on your way out (presumably a problem with their driving not yours), and complaining about being stuck behind someone in a Subaru driving too slowly. I apologize for my apparent arrogance (maybe you can point it out in my reports), but it just all kind of rubbed me the wrong way.
I shouldn't have even brought up the additional couple 1" chunks of tape that I had independent of the scratches and only in one short section, and not anywhere near where I ran into this helpful, perfect example of a hiker that we all should attain to be, person. Too much for your little mind to follow that much complexity. THOSE WERE UNRELATED. Probably overkill on my part, MAYBE even bad judgement, and cleaned out by me in within a couple hours, except ONE that even Eagle Eyes managed to spot and snag. In fact one reason I hung back was I planned to cleanup after myself and didn't want this guy to see my natural and discreet and TEMPORARY markers. And indeed even Eagle Eyes missed most of them. By the way, I learned my trail marking techniques from Boy Scout books, ironically enough. I see on this forum though you can only impact nature if its done for fun, NOT for safety. I stand corrected on that error in my perception. Cairns are only approved if they are built resulting from a buzz and for no reason. (I can provide the link on this forum), and you can only needlessly mark up the snow with deep gouges for fun glissading, not a tiny scratch for safety. And only the damage done by casually bushwhacking is allowed, heaven forbid nothing that might help people stay on a faint or obliterated section of trail. Any thoughts given to this obsession everyone suddenly has to making trails as invisible as possible correlating to a great deal of people losing the trail and needing a high impact SAR response to bail them out instead? Seems to me the first rule posted on EVERY site that lists the rules for Wilderness and low impact hiking is to STAY ON THE TRAIL. Which is hard to do if people can't see it. And certainly NOT the philosophy supported HERE. I wasn't complaining about dodging cars coming my way. Those were glass smooth transitions, a veritable ballet of mountain dirt road driving. The joking dig at the Subaru was necessary because I had the image in my mind the whole time, as posted by a Subaru Cult member here, of a Subaru flying through the air at high speed on a dirt road in a rally car race, to prove all it takes is a Subbie. The car I was behind in contrast was just short of stopping at EVERY rock and pothole, which had me about giggling with those two images superimposed in my mind. And like all Subaru drivers, of course they wouldn't pull over to let someone pass....I expected no less. smile.gif As far as flip flops on the trail and other lack of preparedness.... I view that as entertainment and any pain is brought on by the person and impacts the person. What I find odd is pointing out this silliness to hopefully make others think before inflicting similar pain on themselves, is shouted down HERE, whereas "compromises" from the high state of ethics I read on this forum regarding classic trail rules in the interest of SAFETY is slammed hard. Note if I had really wanted to give Ms. Flip-flops some real flak, I would have had her stop while I took a photo of her almost frozen feet. THAT would have been cruel, and whereas it did cross my mind, I couldn't quite stoop THAT low. And your sentence just makes absolutely no sense, comparing my "handicap" which is well compensated for by being well prepared, to idiots with full capability for being prepared just walking up the mountain like the are in line for the water slide at the local amusement park. (after being called "mentally handicapped" by a moderator, I assume I therefor have full license to refer to "idiots") Sorry, but Try READING posts more carefully before you fire off kneejerk reactions.

friluftsliv
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Tom
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Tom
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PostMon Jul 07, 2008 1:37 pm 
Quote:
Too much for your little mind to follow
I thought you were claiming that handicap. wink.gif

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Old Not Bold Hiker



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Old Not Bold Hiker
PostMon Jul 07, 2008 2:42 pm 
Tom wrote:
Quote:
Too much for your little mind to follow
I thought you were claiming that handicap. wink.gif
May I remind your short term memory loss.... YOU laid that one on ME. All I said was I had a bad sense of direction, which for some reason you equate directly to IQ. Not sure how well the gene splicers would back you up on that one. Observations here seem to indicate quite the contrary correlation.... tongue.gif I am fascinated at how you manage to twist just about everything into unrecognizable. I normally just stand back in amazement when I see you do that to other people's posts, and let them try to figure out what hit them on their own. I don't mind a difference in opinion. What I can't abide is mis-quoting, and YOU kicked off the personal slams.

friluftsliv
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Tom
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Tom
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PostMon Jul 07, 2008 4:31 pm 
I was just going by what you said. Let's clarify then. You do have a sense of direction. You're not actually handicapped (based on your use of the word handicapped more than once I assumed you were saying you had issues with short term memory or a similar mental handicap, but apparently not, it was just a figure of speech not to be taken literally). Sounds like you carry a map, compass, and altimeter and apparently? know how to use them. So just wondering, why you feel it necessary to place flags, particularly on a route like this? If you're looking so carefully for these micro? flags on the way down, why not just exercise your mind a little harder, look for natural landmarks, a footprint in the snow, etc.?

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Backpacker Joe
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Backpacker Joe
Blind Hiker
PostMon Jul 07, 2008 5:11 pm 
Interesting thread. I wouldn't mind being show (in the rule book I suppose) the law prohibiting off trail travel in the wilderness area.... Pretty sure it doesn't exist.

"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide." — Abraham Lincoln
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