Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 2636 | TRs | Pics Location: dog training
Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:55 pm
This whole thing is both disturbing and tragic. How terrifying for the surviving hiker, and for the kid too no doubt. Please, someone tell me that the majority of hunters are far more responsible than this. I have never hiked afraid before and I certainly don't want to start now...but this is just awful. In bear country I used to wear bells to protect myself from the bears...now maybe I'll start wearing them again to protect myself from humans. Sincere prayers for everyone involved in this nightmare.
-------------- "May I always be the kind of person my dog thinks I am"
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 2972 | TRs | Pics Location: In the woods, by the big tree
Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:58 pm
Toonces wrote:
Surely you're not suggesting we deprive 4 year-olds of their 4th Amendment rights!
No, I presume 4-year-olds may be protected against unreasonable searches and seizures, but what does this have to do with a young hunter killing a female hiker?
-------------- "The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer." - D.H. Lawrence
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 4210 | TRs | Pics Location: Out of the pit
Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:02 pm
the Zachster wrote:
In bear country I used to wear bells to protect myself from the bears...now maybe I'll start wearing them again to protect myself from humans.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing. This incident really gets to me. Sauk Mtn is a trail I've been wanting to do, NWhikers go all the time. This could have been any of us up there today. Maybe it was.
Do we really have to make tons of noise, wear hunter orange and always be checking the surroundings to hike on an well established trail Aug. 1? I realize this is an isolated incident but it still bothers me big time.
-------------- "I've seen them fight in seedy bars in Mexico, and once as a side attraction at a cock fight in Toppenish. I've never seen this behavior in the wild, but maybe because the money just isn't good enough." - Kbatku, Marmot Naturalist
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 2972 | TRs | Pics Location: In the woods, by the big tree
Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:06 pm
David¹ wrote:
That's bull about 'trails everywhere'
Look at where the murder took place - north of Hwy 20 between Baker Lake Road & the National Park. How many heavily used maintained trails are there?
Would restricting hunting a half mile from these trails really take all the hunting ground away?
Whoa! Time out.
"Murder?" And just how did you establish "murder?" It may have been negligent homicide, it may be manslaughter, but "murder" is a term that suggests a deliberate, premeditated act. That's a stretch.
(Edit: It now appears she was bending over putting something in her pack, on the trail. )
There is an abundance of trails, some very popular and others not so much, but they are still trails. Banning hunting near these would be impossible without banning hunting. [Over much public land]
Keep in mind, hunters use these trails, too. They have just as much right to hike along a public trail as anyone else.
-------------- "The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer." - D.H. Lawrence
How could anyone see a hiker on the Sauk Mountain TRAIL and think it's a bear? I've been up there. It's quite obviously a trail with people walking on it - from the parking lot all the way to the top.
This is MURDER. You don't "accidentally" kill someone on a hiking trail with a hunting rifle.
Surely you're not suggesting we deprive 4 year-olds of their 4th Amendment rights! :strange:
The 4th amendment:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
I believe you were probably thinking of the second.
Anyway, my daughter took hunter safety about five years ago. I sat through the entire class. It was 5 days at 4 hours per day. So about 20 hours of total instruction. Most of the class focused on safety. The last day, the only one with shooting, focused on the killing power of a gun. And why you do NOT shoot unless you are sure of your target. The kids did get to shoot several pumpkins and were reminded that's what happens when a human gets shot. Not quite like the movies.
There were only one or two kids out of 40 at 11 years of age in the class. Nobody younger.
My observation is that hunting accidents are generally the result of too much excitement. I am really reluctant to hunt with folks from the coast simply because many of them just get too excited when the bird flushes. I will pass on the Dick Cheny comments. I think it is the same case with teens. I would not let a teen hunt without me next to him until I saw him/her pass up several shots.
Anyway, my daughter knows that guns are NOT cool, they are just a tool.
I am confident that she would walk out of any situation where somebody was just fooling around with a gun. That was worth driving her to hunter safety for a week. She never did take up hunting and that's fine.
I just wish the driving test focused more on the dangers of driving. Teens with guns are not nearly the problem as teens behind the wheel. But since most of us drive, but do not hunt we focus on those activites we do not participate.
I know that it doesn't help the family, but from the societial point of view driving by teens is several hundred magnitudes more dangerous than teens hunting.
The family and kid do need to be held accountable for the shooting. I hope the investigation helps set the appropriate level of punishment.
This is a reminder that August 1st really is the start of hunter orange season for anybody out in the woods.
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 2636 | TRs | Pics Location: dog training
Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:13 pm
AB says: "Please folks..if you are hiking in an area during any hunting season..wear bright colors...it could save your life."
So, if bear hunting began yesterday, then we will be wearing our lovely blaze orange from snow melt until snow fall in November. I think I need a new wardrobe. Those REI khakis just aren't gonna do anymore...
-------------- "May I always be the kind of person my dog thinks I am"
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 2972 | TRs | Pics Location: In the woods, by the big tree
Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:13 pm
mcganahan skejellyfetti wrote:
How could anyone see a hiker on the Sauk Mountain TRAIL and think it's a bear? I've been up there. It's quite obviously a trail with people walking on it - from the parking lot all the way to the top.
This is MURDER. You don't "accidentally" kill someone on a hiking trail with a hunting rifle.
No, it is not "MURDER!"
Again, this term is now being tossed around rather carelessly. Neg homicide, manslaughter...but murder?
"Murder" is what happened on the trail to Pinnacle Lake.
This is not so clear just yet.
-------------- "The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer." - D.H. Lawrence
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 8809 | TRs | Pics Location: Long Ago and Far Away
Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:14 pm
There is a wanton an willful standard for murder, it requires a reckless disregard for human life. An example dating back to the 19th century is firing at a passing train. IMHO firing onto a popular trail is similar.
-------------- We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard
-JFK
Joined: 16 Mar 2007 Posts: 4553 | TRs | Pics Location: Between a Rope and a Hard Place
Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:18 pm
the Zachster wrote:
So, if bear hunting began yesterday, then we will be wearing our lovely blaze orange from snow melt until snow fall in November. I think I need a new wardrobe. Those REI khakis just aren't gonna do anymore...
And I thought this look was just a bold fashion statement. It seems I am on the forefront of a outdoor fashion revolution...
In any case, this thread will provide some nice relief now that the angry biker thread is dead.
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Posts: 2972 | TRs | Pics Location: In the woods, by the big tree
Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:24 pm
Malachai Constant wrote:
There is a wanton an willful standard for murder, it requires a reckless disregard for human life. An example dating back to the 19th century is firing at a passing train. IMHO firing onto a popular trail is similar.
Well, Mal, I'm afraid your "humble opinion" is not a substitute for the law, and established legal precedent. Mine, neither.
It is possible the kid was not aware of his proximity to the trail
It is obvious the kid did not confirm his target.
Now, not to blame the victim here, but I would like to know what she was wearing at the time, as it might explain in part how this kid mistook her for a legal game animal.
Fatal hunting accidents are getting more rare all the time. But they do happen, as we see here.
This kid will never hunt again, and quite probably will lose his right to ever own, possess, or even be near a firearm again, depending upon how this plays out.
Keep in mind RCW 9A.16.030: "Homicide — When Excusable"
Homicide is excusable when committed by accident or misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means, without criminal negligence, or without any unlawful intent.
It will be up to the game cops to sort out whether there may have been criminal negligence, and present their report to the prosecutor, who has the final word in whether to file charges.
This is the ultimate nightmare. Nobody is a winner, only losers.
-------------- "The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer." - D.H. Lawrence
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