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Randito
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PostTue Oct 06, 2020 8:58 pm 
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jinx'sboy wrote:
The 35mph speed limit cited applies only to a single National Forest in Michigan (a Forest Supervisor there cant sign an Order that applies in a WA Forest).  Speed limits are established, usually, only on very high standard FS roads (like the main Icicle, Twisp River, Suiattle, etc)....and then - again - only by specific Order.

The CFR applies to all National Forests -- here is a forest order specific to Wenatchee National forest lowering the speed limit on Meadow Creek Road #6300 to 25 MPH

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd571919.pdf

Q.E.D
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jinx'sboy
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PostTue Oct 06, 2020 9:32 pm 
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Yes, you found a case, and as I said: ‘generally’, ‘some’, ...

An Order from 1987?  Really?  Absolutely laughable!  I spent decades deep in this stuff, and prepared hundreds of Orders - just like these - on numerous occasions for signature for folks like Mikey Peer (who I worked with).

Again, ONE order on “the paved potion of Road 6300” does not make it apply anywhere else BEYOND that location.
I’d bet that order was later rescinded.  But, even if not, still doesnt apply elsewhere.

You have NO idea of how or what CFR’s are about, how they are promulgated, or how they work. Please look at 36CFR 261 and understand the differences between subparts A, B and C.

You and I have tangled up on these same points, previously, I think.  I guess you are an attorney?  Let me give you some free advice on making claims about prohibitions on the National Forests: you dont have a clue what you are talking about.
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Randito
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PostTue Oct 06, 2020 10:08 pm 
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jinx'sboy wrote:
You dont have a clue what you are talking about.

Fine since you are so knowledgable please provide speed limit information specific to Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest and ideally the Harts Pass road.
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jinx'sboy
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PostTue Oct 06, 2020 10:42 pm 
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Yes. Exactly.  There is not any...

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detailfull/okawen/alerts-notices/?cid=fseprd717017&width=full

Or, call the OKA-WEN NF in the morning and ask them.  When they give you an answer (which you wont like) - ask them to send you a copy of the specific ORDER about speed limits on that EXACT road.

Post it here - I’ll send $100 to a non-profit of your choice.
If not - you send $100 to a non- profit of my choice.

deal?
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Brucester
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PostWed Oct 07, 2020 6:21 am 
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Keep in mind while you're lost in the music on the untame gravel that if you slide off the side help maybe time away....

And most vehicles aren't designed for high speeds on rough roads. Yes even Subaru's. They aren't rally cars!

Always take a moment to let others pass, only takes a second... Give your ego a break. Not a race, or one that anyone ever wins...
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williswall
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PostWed Oct 07, 2020 7:33 am 
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In today's world purposefully cutting off people like Brush Buffaloes example could be quite dangerous, depending on who's behind you....especially if you stop and get out of your vehicle to confront the honker behind. Pure stupidity and lack of awareness. He's lucky it was BB and not someone else.

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altasnob
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PostWed Oct 07, 2020 8:12 am 
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I haven't read this thread, so forgive me if already posted. But I believe RCW 46.61.400, Washington State's "basic rule" applies to every single non-private road in the state, regardless of whether that road is in a city, county, National Forest, National Park, dirt, paved, ect. That statute says:

"No person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent under the conditions and having regard to the actual and potential hazards then existing. In every event speed shall be so controlled as may be necessary to avoid colliding with any person, vehicle or other conveyance on or entering the highway in compliance with legal requirements and the duty of all persons to use due care."

While law enforcement (county sheriffs, state patrol) can ticket under this statute (even if you are going under the speed limit, given the specific conditions on that day, such as when there is snow on the road) county sheriffs and state patrol do not often patrol any forest roads, so you wouldn't risk getting sited on, say, Hart's Pass. However, it could play a factor in a civil law suit against you should you cause a collision for driving too fast on Hart's Pass road (i.e. used to show you were negligent and therefore liable).

Edit: the statute above uses the word, "highway" but I believe this includes all publicly maintained roads, regardless of paved or not. RCW 46.04.197 says "Highway means the entire width between the boundary lines of every way publicly maintained when any part thereof is open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel."
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altasnob
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PostWed Oct 07, 2020 8:31 am 
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Randito wrote:
The slow poke driver was violating RCW 46.61.425

The statute you cite says "No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law."

So I am not sure a person driving 5 mph on Hart's Pass is violating any law, even if they have a hundred cars behind them. If that person were cited with this law, the government would have to prove that the offender's slow speed was not "necessary for safe operation." The person could just say I am scared of heights and to me, 5 mph is as fast as I am comfortable driving on that road. Note the statute does not even say "reasonably necessary" so we use the subjective standard, and not the objective one. So for a defense, all that needs to be shown is that specific person thought it was necessary, regardless of whether others think it was necessary.
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altasnob
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PostWed Oct 07, 2020 8:39 am 
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jinx'sboy wrote:
Forest Service roads are not, generally, subject to traffic laws of the State of WA.

Do you have any legal cite for this proposition?

As I understand, the RCW rules of the road apply for to all roads in Washington, including roads on federal lands like forest roads. Think about it, just because you are on a forest road does not mean you do not have to stop at stop signs and use turn signals when turning right or left. All the laws regarding proper vehicle maintenance (head light, windshield wipers) do not cease to exist the second the vehicle hits a forest road. County Sheriffs do patrol some National Forest areas (see Lake Cushman) and when they do so, they enforce state (RCW) laws.

I believe National Forest and National Park law enforcement have the legal authority to cite a driver for violating RCWs, as well as federal laws (because of cross deputization, which is common in law enforcement). However, the system is set up so that when a federal officer stops and cites a person, that ticket/arrest goes into federal court (which can only prosecute federal laws). So the net effect is they are only stopping people for violations of federal law. Conversely, county sheriffs and state patrol only arrest/stop for RCWs. If an Okanogan County Sheriff happens to be driving up Hart's Pass (rare, but possible) I believe they have the legal authority to enforce any violation of the RCWs and the ticket would go into State Court (Okanogan County District Court).

The biggest issue I would worry about as a driver on Hart's Pass is liability to you should an accident occur. If you violate any law, state or federal, that would be used in a civil law suit to establish liability on you.
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treeswarper
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PostWed Oct 07, 2020 8:45 am 
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Note that road maintenance has declined since the 35mph bit.  Specifically, the 25 road between Randle and Elk Pass.  It has a 35 mph "limit" but anybody who drives that speed doesn't care much about their vehicle.  The road is trying to fall into Iron Creek.  Have also heard stories spread by some of the workers on that road that there were many tree stumps buried in the R/W during construction. 

I saw no kamikaze crotch rockets on it the last time I was on it.  For a while, they were hitting it hard.  The road was featured in some kind of motorcycle magazine.  This also provided the local ambulance with a lot of victims. 

You probably wouldn't like how I drive on the roads.  I slow down significantly on corners so I can stop before an oncoming log truck hits me.  I am trained well, having driven 100 load a day roads.  If you think you are a good woods driver, do that.  You will soon learn the etiquette and method of woods driving or you'll end up off the road. 

The rules are:  Drive according to the conditions and the traffic amount.  Use the %$#@ turnouts and don't play chicken.  Let the fast people go by, unless they are somebody you don't like.   When meeting a horse trailer or trailer or log truck or something heavy, pull off on the side of the road with the drop off and stop for them to go by, if you have time.  Don't be a jerk.

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Randito
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PostWed Oct 07, 2020 9:57 am 
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altasnob wrote:
The person could just say I am scared of heights and to me, 5 mph is as fast as I am comfortable driving on that road.

Such a position by the slowpoke is fine, however the failure to allow others to pass, or in fact the slow poke's swerving to block passage of another vehicle is indefensible.
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treeswarper
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PostWed Oct 07, 2020 10:09 am 
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Having just returned from a walk on a supposedly 25mph road, I'd say screw speed limits, anything goes.  Cops aren't doing anything.  FREEDUMB RULZ!

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altasnob
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PostWed Oct 07, 2020 10:15 am 
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Slowpoke has no duty to pull over. But if slow poke is swerving to prevent others from passing, that could be criminal reckless driving. I have even seen prosecutors charge Class B felony strike offense (3 strikes you are in prison for life) Assault in the Second Degree when a person attempts to use their car as a dangerous weapon (like trying to run someone over, or trying to run another vehicle off the road).

Only legal duty for slow poke to pull over that I am aware of is below, which would not apply to forest roads:

RCW 46.61.427
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jinx'sboy
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PostWed Oct 07, 2020 3:06 pm 
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altasnob wrote:
jinx'sboy wrote:
Forest Service roads are not, generally, subject to traffic laws of the State of WA.

Do you have any legal cite for this proposition?

I did look this up, at some of the policy/manual locations I was familiar with.  Lo and Behold, there has been a change since I was dealing with these very issues.  I suspect this is due to the advent of the Motor Vehicle Use Map effort that has been ongoing for a while, and was just stating when I left the agency.  A lot of the FS manual in Engineering and Road management has been re-written as part of that effort.  It now states that state traffic laws DO apply to FS roads, which was not previously the case.

I was using old memory.  My apologies on that score, especially to Randito.

The process for establishing speed limits, etc is still as I described, earlier, however.
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MyFootHurts
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PostWed Oct 07, 2020 4:48 pm 
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I've been stuck behind people who refuse to let me pass because I think they don't want to drive behind someone else's dust cloud.
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