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| Is limiting population growth in order to limit pressure on the planet's resources (including wilderness) a good idea? |
| Yes |
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61% |
[ 30 ] |
| No |
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34% |
[ 17 ] |
| Where's my option? (rant below) |
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4% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 49 |
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The Angry Hiker
SAR Blacklistee
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 2890 | TRs | Pics
Location: Kentwila |
No need to go to extremes. We can slow population growth considerably if we just force professional basketball players to have children with only one partner.
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Conrad
Meadow bagger
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 2298 | TRs | Pics
Location: Moscow, ID |
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Conrad
Meadow bagger
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 Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:06 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | Quote: | | the reason a person would support this |
...can also be due to opposition to people making choices you don't like... |
So MtnGoat, in the abstract:
Person A perceives that the group is causing a problem which is negatively affecting the group. Person A sees that his own personal action can't possibly fix this problem and help the group; the action of the whole group (or a big part of it) would be required. So Person A advocates that the whole group (or a big part of it) take part in the curative action.
It appears that in such a situation, rather than address/argue person A's actual issue, you want to focus on person A's supposed innate desire to control other people, i.e. person A's "opposition to people making choices he doesn't like".
Am I mischaracterizing what you're doing?
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Chippster
Shiver me timbers
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 851 | TRs | Pics
Location: BFE on the OP |
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Chippster
Shiver me timbers
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:21 pm |
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i guess you could go with what china tries to do and limit families to 2 children....then could go so far as offering a free vasectomy after the 2nd kid.....then there may be some issues with some religious folks on the form of birth control... oh boy, i think the best thing to do is to practice abstinence 
https://nwtd.co
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
https://nwtd.co
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
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whistlingmarmot
Sustainable Resource
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1655 | TRs | Pics
Location: Tacoma, WA |
Conrad, what is your proposed punishment for those that would have children?
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MtnGoat
Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
Member
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:35 pm |
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| Conrad wrote: | | MtnGoat wrote: | | Quote: | | the reason a person would support this |
...can also be due to opposition to people making choices you don't like... |
So MtnGoat, in the abstract:
Person A perceives that the group is causing a problem which is negatively affecting the group. Person A sees that his own personal action can't possibly fix this problem and help the group; the action of the whole group (or a big part of it) would be required. So Person A advocates that the whole group (or a big part of it) take part in the curative action.
It appears that in such a situation, rather than address/argue person A's actual issue, you want to focus on person A's supposed innate desire to control other people, i.e. person A's "opposition to people making choices he doesn't like".
Am I mischaracterizing what you're doing? |
To a degree, yes. Since the actual cause of the problem is person A's perception of it, it's entirely valid to question that perception, isn't it?
I guess I'm not seeing the objection...is it invalid to note that there are only a fairly limited basic number of reasons to decide people or their numbers constitute a problem?
I guess I don't get the discomfort some seem to feel when we discuss this kind of thing around the campfire and I point out the required basis for determining humans are a 'problem'. You don't like them, you don't like what they do, you don't like what they choose..there has to be a problem in problem, and you have to be the judge and owner of said judgement if you see one. Yet when I point this out, I get huge pushback...and it's almost always from the folks who'll tell me how non judgemental they are! But then who tell me humans, or their likes and wants, are a problem.
I definitely appreciate the care with which you approach critiquing my post, however. very interesting and cool. nice to see someone trying to get the context right even if they may not agree
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Conrad
Meadow bagger
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 2298 | TRs | Pics
Location: Moscow, ID |
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Conrad
Meadow bagger
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:47 pm |
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| whistlingmarmot wrote: | | Conrad, what is your proposed punishment for those that would have children? |
whistlingmarmot, where did you get the idea that I propose a punishment for having children? Because for the record, I don't.
Well, OTOH, currently our tax laws "punish" (if you care to use that term) people for not having children, by making them pay for the tax breaks of people who have children. So I might take a side in a debate over how much people who do or don't have children should be punished by the tax laws.
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whistlingmarmot
Sustainable Resource
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1655 | TRs | Pics
Location: Tacoma, WA |
| Conrad wrote: | | whistlingmarmot, where did you get the idea that I propose a punishment for having children? Because for the record, I don't. |
All I know is that it sounds like you want to limit population. Hence the question. Sounds like you want to use 'economic' means to limit population rather than law (which would need a punishment). And it further sounds like you want to use the tax code to do it. Do you propose taxes for families with children?
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Conrad
Meadow bagger
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 2298 | TRs | Pics
Location: Moscow, ID |
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Conrad
Meadow bagger
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:01 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | I guess I don't get the discomfort some seem to feel when we discuss this kind of thing around the campfire and I point out the required basis for determining humans are a 'problem'. You don't like them, you don't like what they do, you don't like what they choose..there has to be a problem in problem, and you have to be the judge and owner of said judgement if you see one. Yet when I point this out, I get huge pushback... |
Here's my stab at a reason you get pushback (from me, for example): Your point is a truism. Well, you might think noone should object to a truism, but people always have a reason for making a statement, even if the statement is true, and one can object to a person's apparent ulterior reason for stating the truism. And the only ulterior point I can see in you inserting this truism, is to deflect discussion from the advocate's actual issue, and replace that with the suggestion that the advocate, simply by advocating that the group do something, has an internal problem with a need to control other people.
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Conrad
Meadow bagger
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 2298 | TRs | Pics
Location: Moscow, ID |
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Conrad
Meadow bagger
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:10 pm |
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| whistlingmarmot wrote: | | Do you propose taxes for families with children? |
Do you advocate taxes for families without children?
I'm pretty sure I'd favor decreasing the current relative tax punishment for people without children. A tax break for one group is just a political trick to hide a tax on another group, and I don't propose taxes for people without children.
I haven't closely considered taxes for families with children; it's inconceivable politically so I don't worry about it much.
Frankly I hadn't considered that I'd need a complete population policy in hand in order to start the thread.
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Dave Workman
Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 3699 | TRs | Pics
Location: In the woods, by the big tree |
| Conrad wrote: | | Now Dave, are the only ways you can think of to limit the population, ways that kill large numbers of people?
If you can think of a way to limit the population that doesn't kill large numbers of people, then go to the head of the class. |
Massive die-off is certainly the most efficient, the quickest — presuming you are from the "instant gratification" generation and You want something and you want it NOW! — and definitely does something to the gene pool. I didn't say good or bad.
Now, you started this thread. So you tell what you think ought to be done.
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
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whistlingmarmot
Sustainable Resource
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 1655 | TRs | Pics
Location: Tacoma, WA |
Conrad, I agree about reducing taxes. If that's the your population control idea then I'm all for it!
Seriously though...it seems you have though significantly about why you would limit population. The basics of how you'd do it is far from a complete policy, and it's just as important, if not more so, than why.
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MtnGoat
Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
Member
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:29 pm |
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I appreciate your comments, and yes, my statement is a truism.
What the truism does is place the burden where it lies in showing the need for an objective basis in discernment of the problem.
We are being asked to vote on wether we'd support the action described in order to solve a problem which supposedly exists in the real, physical world. In order to arrive at a solution which is objective and not political or feelings based, we need to figure out wether or not the problem actually exists and secondly wether or not it's cause is actually what is posited (quantity of people).
In noting that the responsibility for seeing a problem lies with the observer, and your apparent agreement with this (a truism is true, after all), we can now examine wether or not the folks seeing problems are seeing things which are *objectively* true, the only condition for which real world objective actions will yield the intended results.
I appreciate your detailed argument and logic, folks like you make this place a great place to discuss ideas.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Conrad
Meadow bagger
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 2298 | TRs | Pics
Location: Moscow, ID |
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Conrad
Meadow bagger
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:37 pm |
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| Dave Workman wrote: | | Now, you started this thread. So you tell what you think ought to be done. |
Yeah, I started the thread because I thought interested people in the forum might feel like posting their opinions and create an interesting thread. Don't see how it follows that I should necessarily expound my own opinion. I didn't start the thread as my own personal soapbox. In fact as the creator of the (hopefully neutral) poll and (hopefully even-handed) thread, it seems unseemly to expound my own views unless I'm pushed or I just can't help it  .
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touron
Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 10293 | TRs | Pics
Location: Plymouth Rock |
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touron
Member
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:06 pm |
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Well, the thing that many people forget is....oh, just a second--I need to turn off the shower and turn down the volume on the TV before I finish this post. All that background noise starting to annoy me. 
Hey, that was odd!! The water coming out of the shower was freezing cold. I wonder if something is wrong with the hot water tank? The water was definitely hot this morning when I turned it on. 
Now where was I....Help! Wrrriter's blooooock! I need a couple of cans of Jolt and a finger massage if I'm ever going to get this thing finished!
Be back later!
Touron is a nougat of Arabic origin made with almonds and honey or sugar, without which it would just not be Christmas in Spain.
Touron is a nougat of Arabic origin made with almonds and honey or sugar, without which it would just not be Christmas in Spain.
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Stefan
Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 5094 | TRs | Pics
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Stefan
Member
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:13 pm |
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Human population goes up...but not enough strong voices to open up the dilapidated roads to the backcountry!
Maybe if people start logging more here instead of foreign countries, that might happen. Support local logging!
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