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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Dec 04, 2019 8:12 pm 
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Same thing for coal if you do not AGW you should install a Pelton wheel ( assuming you have access to a stream with sufficient head) or drill a geothermal well. Of course now you could invest a few tens of thousands for solar. For many things there ar economies of scale.

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CC
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PostWed Dec 04, 2019 10:25 pm 
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Yes, you will have to know this material for the final.

https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4017

https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4018

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CC
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PostWed Dec 04, 2019 10:28 pm 
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Brian R wrote:
Lead equals more crime? Correlation must equal causation? This seems to be an easy trap for the AGW politico crowd nowadays, science be damned. Crime went down because, as a society, we finally said enough. We started locking up repeat offenders throughout the 80s, 90s, and 00s.  Love that bubble revisionism though!

OK boomer

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Randito
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PostWed Dec 04, 2019 11:11 pm 
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Brian R wrote:
Lead equals more crime? Correlation must equal causation?

There is abundant evidence for the effect of lead on crime rates.

Different countries removed lead from gasoline at different  times.  Other factors such as "broken windows" police practices were applied in some cities and not others.

When the overall data is analyzed,  lead is the consistent factor across many counties, cities and times.

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-lead-crime-roundup-for-2018/
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Brian R
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PostThu Dec 05, 2019 12:00 am 
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Mother Jones? You can't be serious. At least have the decency to cite something you read in The Stranger. Heck, even a Marvel Comic will do. Very disappointing--but not unexpected.
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Brian R
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PostThu Dec 05, 2019 12:03 am 
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CC wrote:
OK boomer

Not sure how to tell you, but this only works when you're not, um, a self-proclaimed curmudgeon and a boomer. If you are under thirty, then I stand corrected. If not, please act your age.
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Randito
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PostThu Dec 05, 2019 2:12 am 
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Brian R wrote:
Mother Jones? You can't be serious. At least have the decency to cite something you read in The Stranger. Heck, even a Marvel Comic will do. Very disappointing--but not unexpected.

Not just Mother Jones,

Wall Street Journal wrote:
Tests have shown that the amount of lead in Americans' blood fell by four-fifths between 1975 and 1991. A 2007 study by the economist Jessica Wolpaw Reyes contended that the reduction in gasoline lead produced more than half of the decline in violent crime during the 1990s in the U.S. and might bring about greater declines in the future. Another economist, Rick Nevin, has made the same argument for other nations.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304066504576345553135009870

Brookings wrote:
The challenge for economists has been to separate the effect of lead exposure from the effects of all those other things that are correlated with lead exposure. A true experiment — where some kids are randomized to grow up with high lead exposure and others not — is out of the question. So economists have gone hunting for natural experiments — events or policies that divide otherwise-similar kids into comparable treatment and control groups.

And they’ve found them. Three recent papers consider the effects of lead exposure on juvenile delinquency and crime rates, using three very different empirical approaches and social contexts. All have plausible (but very different) control groups, and all point to the same conclusion: lead exposure leads to big increases in criminal behavior. 

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2017/06/01/new-evidence-that-lead-exposure-increases-crime/
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thunderhead
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 10:34 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
My point is to discredit MG's hypothesis that individual action is sufficient to accomplish environmental protection -- that government regulation is unnecessary.

Fair enough.  Depending on how the tech develops over the next 20 years or so i agree certain amounts of government action will probably be required.

The wisest government action now would be increased government investment and streamlining development in nuke plants and more funding for fusion research.
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:27 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
You concede that your "voluntary" solution is no solution.

Millions of people lives were improved by the removal of lead from gasoline, why is this not a worthwhile objective?

I conceded no such thing, in any way. Just because the methods you wish to use are wrong does not mean not using them leads to failure.

All it means is you'll need to live your values for real, not just *say* they're your values. If you claim that will fail, you're demonstrating your true level of commitment.

None.

What *you* refuse to do, is not proof of other people's failure.

No one said it wasn't a worthwhile objective. There is *zero* connection between how worthwhile something is, and the means to achieve it.

The continual, intentional conflation of an objective with whatever it takes means is evidence of the ends justifies the means thinking, exactly as I asserted prior.

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MtnGoat
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:31 am 
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Ski wrote:
And exactly how would that be possible? Each individual is going to build his own refinery and make his own unleaded gas?
Be serious.

Unleaded gasoline would not have happened had it not been for its being legislated into being. Full stop.

You can dance around all over this one until hell freezes over, but it doesn't change the facts.

There was no option for "voluntary" in the early 1970s when that change took place. If you bought gasoline, you got leaded gasoline. There wasn't anything else available.
Or perhaps you're suggesting that all of those who wanted to "voluntarily" stop using it could have just walked or pedaled their bicycles to work?

Thanks for the laugh. dizzy.gif

No, you're going to choose to forgo the benefits and accept the negatives, because living your goals is your job. I'll say it to you as well....not one person on this Earth was placed here to serve your ends or goals by force. Oh, I can't because I don't like the consequences of my own ideals ....is an excuse.

You can dance around all over facts and not escape the salient fact..that people won't choose to forgo what they claim is bad is a problem with *them*, not someone else. This is why a lot of folks really don't like leaving choices to other people...it leaves the choices on their own actions, and the responsibility which goes with them, on their plate.

And then shows the gaping chasm between the publicly proclaimed values and what they actually act upon when the risk, cost and inconvenience is on their plate.

Exactly like the climate warriors here who won't forgo their own purely voluntary trips, plans and fun even while they preach control over everyone else for those darned people's 'unnecessary' 'waste'.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:36 am 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
Same thing for coal if you do not AGW you should install a Pelton wheel ( assuming you have access to a stream with sufficient head) or drill a geothermal well. Of course now you could invest a few tens of thousands for solar. For many things there ar economies of scale.

Solar never even meets it's own economy of scale.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:37 am 
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CC wrote:
OK boomer

LOL!

Maybe turning to arguments which aren't, and which show a total disconnect from reality as it actually is, is not the best idea.

Aping the actions of the disconnected narcissists of the feelings first, facts never folks isn't the best idea.

Really though, i love that comment because it shows the comment maker is pretty much done.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Brian R
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:40 am 
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The Kiwi version of AOC.
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Randito
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:41 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
I don't count difficulty in achieving voluntary action as a valid reason to use the State against innocent citizens. The ends do not justify the means. If you say it's impossible without the use of force, then I say OK, it's impossible.

Emphasis added


So on the issue of using leaded gasoline -- a citizen using leaded gasoline isn't an innocent citizen as you contend -- their actions are known to harm the environment and other citizens.    Perhaps they are doing this unwittingly and without fully understanding the consequences of their actions -- but this doesn't absolve them of responsibility.
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:52 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Emphasis added


So on the issue of using leaded gasoline -- a citizen using leaded gasoline isn't an innocent citizen as you contend -- their actions are known to harm the environment and other citizens.    Perhaps they are doing this unwittingly and without fully understanding the consequences of their actions -- but this doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

I agree. So where you can *objectively* establish, using *valid* science following by the numbers scientific method and falsifiable arguments, then yes, you will be able to show that they are violating someone else's rights..

And thus this is morally actionable.

Note that this means my argument you claimed had no path to possibility of removing lead, was flawed.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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