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MtnGoat
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 10:53 am 
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Brian R wrote:
The Kiwi version of AOC.

All you need after that one is to claim all your opponents are wrong because -ist or -ism or something.

The ignorance contained in the basis of the initial statement is so vast it's hard to know where to begin. Yet it's pushed as the height of irony...which it is, but not in the way they mean.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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RandyHiker
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:06 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
Emphasis added


So on the issue of using leaded gasoline -- a citizen using leaded gasoline isn't an innocent citizen as you contend -- their actions are known to harm the environment and other citizens.    Perhaps they are doing this unwittingly and without fully understanding the consequences of their actions -- but this doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

I agree. So where you can *objectively* establish, using *valid* science following by the numbers scientific method and falsifiable arguments, then yes, you will be able to show that they are violating someone else's rights..

And thus this is morally actionable.

Your answer is a bit garbled -- do you agree that using leaded gasoline harms other citizens or not?
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:10 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Your answer is a bit garbled -- do you agree that using leaded gasoline harms other citizens or not?

There's nothing garbled there at all. Merely a detailed argument concerning the fundamentals of actual science and actual logic, necessary to get to actual, empirical, objective facts.

And from what I can tell from results of that process, yes, leaded fuel can cause harm.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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RandyHiker
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:18 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
Your answer is a bit garbled -- do you agree that using leaded gasoline harms other citizens or not?

There's nothing garbled there at all. Merely a detailed argument concerning the fundamentals of actual science and actual logic, necessary to get to actual, empirical, objective facts.

And from what I can tell from results of that process, yes, leaded fuel can cause harm.

Cool -- so what is your proposed voluntary  mechanism for preventing that harm and/or compensating individuals so harmed?
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catsp
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PostFri Dec 06, 2019 11:00 pm 
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Florida Keys Deliver a Hard Message: As Seas Rise, Some Places Can’t Be Saved.
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Parked Out
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PostSat Dec 07, 2019 7:12 am 
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catsp wrote:
Florida Keys Deliver a Hard Message: As Seas Rise, Some Places Can’t Be Saved.

Interesting that Aqua Monitor shows more land growth than loss in the Keys over the past 30 years (not that that's going to solve their problems).

Florida Keys
Florida Keys

https://aqua-monitor.appspot.com/

https://sci-hub.tw/10.1038/nclimate3111#

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MtnGoat
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PostMon Dec 09, 2019 12:23 pm 
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The antiGreta. Articulate, clear thinking.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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CC
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PostMon Dec 09, 2019 9:43 pm 
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Brian R wrote:
Lead equals more crime? Correlation must equal causation? This seems to be an easy trap for the AGW politico crowd nowadays, science be damned. Crime went down because, as a society, we finally said enough. We started locking up repeat offenders throughout the 80s, 90s, and 00s.  Love that bubble revisionism though!

You are committing the same correlation = causation error you accuse others of.  With a simple web search you could have seen that only a small part (<10%) of the drop in crime was explained by the increased incarceration, e.g.  https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/what-caused-crime-decline :

Quote:
What Caused the Crime Decline? examines one of the nation’s least understood recent phenomena – the dramatic decline in crime nationwide over the past two decades – and analyzes various theories for why it occurred, by reviewing more than 40 years of data from all 50 states and the 50 largest cities. It concludes that over-harsh criminal justice policies, particularly increased incarceration, which rose even more dramatically over the same period, were not the main drivers of the crime decline. In fact, the report finds that increased incarceration has been declining in its effectiveness as a crime control tactic for more than 30 years. Its effect on crime rates since 1990 has been limited, and has been non-existent since 2000.
More important were various social, economic, and environmental factors, such as growth in income and an aging population. The introduction of CompStat, a data-driven policing technique, also played a significant role in reducing crime in cities that introduced it.


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No matter how cynical you become, it's not enough to keep up.  Jane Wagner/Lily Tomlin
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PostMon Dec 09, 2019 9:57 pm 
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Another win for the lukewarmers:

IEA vs IPCC AR5
IEA vs IPCC AR5

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CC
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PostMon Dec 09, 2019 10:04 pm 
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Brian R wrote:
CC wrote:
OK boomer

Not sure how to tell you, but this only works when you're not, um, a self-proclaimed curmudgeon and a boomer. If you are under thirty, then I stand corrected. If not, please act your age.

Actually I am pre boomer, Gen OF.  However, “OK boomer” is not strictly age related.  It is a critique of people who, here in the 19th year of the 21st century, are still clinging to outdated ideologies, attitudes, and mores from the 20th century and earlier, by people who have moved on to the 21st century.

Incidentally,  given your post below, why are you still here?

Quote:
Finally, I signed on here about a year ago to share trip reports, ideas, and, occasionally, stewardship thoughts related directly to trails, wilderness, and access. It appears the site moderators value green barkers more than experienced outdoorsmen and women willing to share their, well, experiences. Unfortunately, there is just too much noise here for me to remain.

Prior to this quote the majority of your posts were, in fact, on the trip report forum; since, hardly any are.  Note: I am not implying you shouldn't be here, just wondering why you decided, apparently against your better judgment, to remain and concentrate on contributing to the noise.

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No matter how cynical you become, it's not enough to keep up.  Jane Wagner/Lily Tomlin
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Brian R
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PostMon Dec 09, 2019 11:43 pm 
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CC wrote:
OK boomer

Brian R wrote:
Not sure how to tell you, but this only works when you're not, um, a self-proclaimed curmudgeon and a boomer. If you are under thirty, then I stand corrected. If not, please act your age.

CC wrote:
Actually I am pre boomer, Gen OF.  However, “OK boomer” is not strictly age related.  It is a critique of people who, here in the 19th year of the 21st century, are still clinging to outdated ideologies, attitudes, and mores from the 20th century and earlier, by people who have moved on to the 21st century.

Ageist nonsense from a cult progressive. We all seek to control language, definitions and concoct excuses for our personal biases. Your effort here seems particularly contrived and filled with irony, constructed to fit a particular world view.

CC wrote:
Incidentally,  given your post below, why are you still here?

Brian R wrote:
Finally, I signed on here about a year ago to share trip reports, ideas, and, occasionally, stewardship thoughts related directly to trails, wilderness, and access. It appears the site moderators value green barkers more than experienced outdoorsmen and women willing to share their, well, experiences. Unfortunately, there is just too much noise here for me to remain.

CC wrote:
Prior to this quote the majority of your posts were, in fact, on the trip report forum; since, hardly any are.  Note: I am not implying you shouldn't be here, just wondering why you decided, apparently against your better judgment, to remain and concentrate on contributing to the noise.

That you did this level of research into my posting background tells me a bit about you. In any event, I did shift gears for sure.
BTW, have you posted any trip reports? If you have, they aren't visible under your avatar. I'd love to read them.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 9:09 am 
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It's time to revisit, and undo, the disastrous, anti rule of law delegation of lawmaking to bureaucrats.

Quote:
How much authority should federal agencies have in shaping regulations like the Clean Power Plan, and how much of that work should fall to Congress instead?

Some legal experts say that question could become a focus for the Supreme Court's conservative majority now that Justice Brett Kavanaugh has signaled interest in reconsidering the scope of agency powers (Greenwire, Nov. 25).

Court watchers say Kavanaugh's addition to the bench could open the door to a revival of the long-dormant nondelegation doctrine, which prevents Congress from handing off policy decisions to federal agencies.

The return of the doctrine, which the court has not used to scrap an agency rule since 1935, could pose a threat to greenhouse gas regulations, said UCLA law professor Ann Carlson.

"The basic idea is that if Congress hasn't specifically addressed a question, then for an agency to take up that question and regulate on it — particularly when there has been a relatively large passage of time since Congress spoke — it shouldn't and can't do so, at least in expansive ways," Carlson said.

The only entity which should be passing law is legislatures/councils of elected officials at the various levels of govt. It is fine for folks who are not elected to come up with the plans, details basis, etc for regulatory action..it is not OK for them to pass or impose such law. That power is delegated to elected officials. Proposed regulation should be passed to congress (or state congress, or city hall, or...)to bill-ify it, then voted on...for *all* regulation at the appropriate level of the appropriate body.

If we can reign in the power of the un-elected in the EPA, it will be time to apply the doctrine in all other portions of govt both Federal and State.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Brian R
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 9:51 am 
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We are devolving into a sort of neo-Confucianism where the real class divisions are between public sector bureaucrats and private sector serfs.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 10:21 am 
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#Exxonknew suit fails....

Findings PDF

AG failed to show preponderance of evidence concerning their claims.

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PostTue Dec 10, 2019 7:22 pm 
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Some welcome climate sanity from Cliff Mass contra the Seattle Times:

Promoters of Climate Anxiety

"There is a special place in the underworld for those who promote anxiety, desperation, and terror in the most vulnerable.  A place where the infernal warmth is particularly torrid.  And one does not have to spend much time looking for candidates for this netherworld--the front page of the Seattle Times will do fine."

https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2019/12/promoters-of-climate-anxiety.html

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John
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