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joker
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joker
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PostSun Dec 21, 2008 9:09 am 
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How come these fishermen don't start up their troll motors during heat waves in the summertime? rolleyes.gif
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straydog
slave to a monolith



Joined: 19 Apr 2008
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straydog
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PostSun Dec 21, 2008 9:36 am 
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ericrjensen wrote:
so that makes this the first page of another 60+ of climate change "discussion" that goes no where.

That seems to be the core of the issue, in general. There is no doubt in my mind that we (people) have had an effect on the climate... the ecosystem in general. Unfortuantely, the facts surrounding that change are subject to interpretation that too often reflects agendas and not a recognition of the facts as a whole. Most people will always pick out the facts that support their position, and ignore the rest.

Climate change is one of the hardest to agree on, because you can't point to one or two events and hold them out as an example of change. The real changes occur on a general global scale over generations. So as individuals, most people will never recognize much in the way of change.

IMO, the history of Easter Island is one of the best examples of the kind of change we are talking about. Slow changes to an ecosystem over time that take generations to be recognized.

It's always going to be difficult to come to agreement, or even consensus, at least until people's everyday lives are affected (or not affected).
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MadCapLaughs
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MadCapLaughs
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PostSun Dec 21, 2008 11:07 am 
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Well, despite the insanity that endlessly repeats on this forum over this issue, at least we can rest assured that the incoming administration has appointed respected scientists to deal with this and not political hacks. Hopefully, respect for the scientific process has a place in the White House once again. Hopefully, these arguments among people who know nothing about CC specifically or climate science in general will be moot.
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Backpacker Joe
NWH Joe-Bob



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
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Backpacker Joe
NWH Joe-Bob
PostSun Dec 21, 2008 11:16 am 
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MadCapLaughs wrote:
Well, despite the insanity that endlessly repeats on this forum over this issue, at least we can rest assured that the incoming administration has appointed respected scientists to deal with this and not political hacks. Hopefully, respect for the scientific process has a place in the White House once again. Hopefully, these arguments among people who know nothing about CC specifically or climate science in general will be moot.

Yada yada yada.  If your new "guy" follows a different path with respect to GW our economy will tank twenty times worse than it is now!  Kyoto would have bankrupt the United States.

That and there are as many respected scientists who are against the current religious (because that's what GW is, a religion go ahead and prove it, you cant.  Youre acting on faith) fanaticism this is GW today.

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"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

— Abraham Lincoln
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straydog
slave to a monolith



Joined: 19 Apr 2008
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straydog
slave to a monolith
PostSun Dec 21, 2008 11:51 am 
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Backpacker Joe wrote:
Yada yada yada.  If your new "guy" follows a different path with respect to GW our economy will tank twenty times worse than it is now!  Kyoto would have bankrupt the United States.

A lot of people said the same kind of thing when we shifted from being a manufactuing based economy to technollogy based.

I have a little more faith in American's ability to find opportunity in change.  up.gif

Politics aside, if we (or any country) puts laws into place to restrict emmisions, that opens the door for entrepreneurs to create businesses and make money. In my mind there's nothing wrong with making money off of cleaning up the environment  biggrin.gif

The economy won't tank because of Kyoto, but it will tank if we refuse to keep up with the rest of the world and try to stop it from changing.
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Backpacker Joe
NWH Joe-Bob



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
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Backpacker Joe
NWH Joe-Bob
PostSun Dec 21, 2008 12:11 pm 
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The rest of the world?  Did you catch who was EXEMPT from Kyoto?  Please, mumbo jumbo.  There is no way our economy could have dealt with Kyoto in the time frame allowed for the changes required!  I have as much faith in the United States as anyone.  These kind of changes must happen slowly over time.  Instituting them quickly will kill our economy.

--------------
"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

— Abraham Lincoln
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straydog
slave to a monolith



Joined: 19 Apr 2008
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Location: North Bend
straydog
slave to a monolith
PostSun Dec 21, 2008 1:46 pm 
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Backpacker Joe wrote:
There is no way our economy could have dealt with Kyoto in the time frame allowed for the changes required!  I have as much faith in the United States as anyone.  These kind of changes must happen slowly over time.  Instituting them quickly will kill our economy.

First, the US is one of six and the only industrialized country in the world to not have ratified the Kyoto Protocol. As of May 2008, a total of 181 countries a have ratified the agreement. None of them are "exempt". Each country has a level of greenhouse gas credits representing the amount of emissions they can have.

Kyoto is a 'cap and trade' system that imposes national caps on the emissions of Annex I countries (the US being one). It doesn't address any specific industry or business, nor does it require any specified economic commitments.

There was nothing in the Kyoto agreement that said the US would have to do anything other than make a commitment to reduce greenhouse gases to 7% below 1990 levels by 2012. This could be achieved through trading credits, and/or actually reducing emissions.

This country could easily 'trade' greenhouse gas credits with less developed countries in exchange for economic development assistance over the short term (assistance that we give away today), while working on cleaner technologies in the long term.

To say that the US economy would be hurt by Kyoto is baseless. The multiple cost-benefit analysis that have been done all over the world and in the US have been inconclusive. Some say it's positive, others say it's negative.
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The Rational Inquirer
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The Rational Inquirer
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PostSun Dec 21, 2008 2:40 pm 
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Here's a web page on the existence of God.  I have not read through it nor do I plan to today.  It was the first thing that came up in my google search ("proofs for the existence of God")  Right now I am watching it snow...this is the most days of snowfall I've seen in Seattle, but that does not prove global cooling or global warming.  It is more a reason why I am posting at this moment in time...

-TRI
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Rich Baldwin
Mister Eddie



Joined: 21 Dec 2001
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Rich Baldwin
Mister Eddie
PostSun Dec 21, 2008 3:01 pm 
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Dogs on trails cause global warming by building cairns and flagging them.

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Was you ever bit by a dead bee?
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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostSun Dec 21, 2008 3:18 pm 
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This is an astoundingly bad place to discuss such topics as the total audience seems to be about a half dozen people whose minds are made up. It is more productive to pound sand if you can find some wink.gif

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostSun Dec 21, 2008 4:43 pm 
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Rich Baldwin wrote:
Dogs on trails cause global warming by building cairns and flagging them.

My dog just contributed by pooping right by the ski trail so don't fall down there.   And he CAN go there because I made the trail so I get to make the rules. moon.gif

FOR YOU NEWCOMERS:   This is by no means an unusual winter.  It is winter and it is the PNW.  It is usual to be chilly this time of year.  It is usual to have days of -0 on the east side this time of year.  It doesn't happen every year, but it does happen.  Maybe too many people moved here thinking it only rained in the winter?   I suggest you move to San Diego.  breakdance.gif

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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Mtn Dog
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Joined: 01 Aug 2004
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Mtn Dog
Technohiker
PostSun Dec 21, 2008 5:58 pm 
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In less than four days, Bellevue has seen nearly 14" of snow.  I've been here 21 years and never seen anything close to this in December, or all winter for that matter.

This issue has been discussed ad nauseum on several threads so I can only offer several points of order if people wish to discuss it further.  Aside from the emotional and political nature of this topic the issue itself is relatively simple.  If humans are causing the planet to warm, how exactly are they doing it?  In that sense, ask yourself the extent to which humans can impact the climate in deference to all other natural causes of warming and cooling.  Then also ask yourself what difference it could possibly make if our economy did adjust for Kyoto Protocols.  This a really good science matter to read up on and become more informed about.  The Greenhouse Effect is worth learning about to come at this issue with a much better understanding of just what is happening (far beyond each and everyone's own personal opinion about the subject).

As for our current snowfall and cold snap, I don't see how Global Warming, per se, contributes to greater weather extremes.  I have yet to see an explanation as to why this would happen.  I understand oceans getting warmer and bringing more precip but that's a single movement in one direction, not greater variability.

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Footprints on the sands of time will never be made sitting down.
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straydog
slave to a monolith



Joined: 19 Apr 2008
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Location: North Bend
straydog
slave to a monolith
PostSun Dec 21, 2008 7:01 pm 
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Mtn Dog wrote:
In less than four days, Bellevue has seen nearly 14" of snow.  I've been here 21 years and never seen anything close to this in December, or all winter for that matter.

This issue has been discussed ad nauseum on several threads so I can only offer several points of order if people wish to discuss it further.  Aside from the emotional and political nature of this topic the issue itself is relatively simple. 

I'm starting to believe that people can't have a discussion that's not affected by politics and emotion... However, while the topic might be simple, the data and evidence is not.

Mtn Dog wrote:
If humans are causing the planet to warm, how exactly are they doing it?  In that sense, ask yourself the extent to which humans can impact the climate in deference to all other natural causes of warming and cooling.  Then also ask yourself what difference it could possibly make if our economy did adjust for Kyoto Protocols.  This a really good science matter to read up on and become more informed about.  The Greenhouse Effect is worth learning about to come at this issue with a much better understanding of just what is happening (far beyond each and everyone's own personal opinion about the subject).

I agree entirely.  up.gif

Quote:
As for our current snowfall and cold snap, I don't see how Global Warming, per se, contributes to greater weather extremes.  I have yet to see an explanation as to why this would happen.  I understand oceans getting warmer and bringing more precip but that's a single movement in one direction, not greater variability.

It's not just about more precip, it also involves changes in weather patterns because cooling and heating of both water and land changes at diffferent rates (thermal inertia) in different regions. Overall, global average temps go up, very little and very slowly. But the local weather patterns can change more significantly because of the different rates of heating.

That doesn't mean that the current snow and cold snap has anything to do with global warming (it may or may not, nobody knows).

But, as you said yourself, the best way to understand it better is to take the time to learn more. Wikipedia has a pretty good article (very nuetral) for reference.
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Dave Workman
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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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Dave Workman
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PostSun Dec 21, 2008 8:37 pm 
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Mtn Dog wrote:
In less than four days, Bellevue has seen nearly 14" of snow.  I've been here 21 years and never seen anything close to this in December, or all winter for that matter.

This issue has been discussed ad nauseum on several threads so I can only offer several points of order if people wish to discuss it further.  Aside from the emotional and political nature of this topic the issue itself is relatively simple.  If humans are causing the planet to warm, how exactly are they doing it?  In that sense, ask yourself the extent to which humans can impact the climate in deference to all other natural causes of warming and cooling.  Then also ask yourself what difference it could possibly make if our economy did adjust for Kyoto Protocols.  This a really good science matter to read up on and become more informed about.  The Greenhouse Effect is worth learning about to come at this issue with a much better understanding of just what is happening (far beyond each and everyone's own personal opinion about the subject).

As for our current snowfall and cold snap, I don't see how Global Warming, per se, contributes to greater weather extremes.  I have yet to see an explanation as to why this would happen.  I understand oceans getting warmer and bringing more precip but that's a single movement in one direction, not greater variability.

Item #1:  You ain't been here long enough. After rescuing my MIL (she's slumbering comfortably on our couch right now) she reminded me of the winter of 1950, when what you're currently looking at was "good news."

I've seen more than a few winters like this, dating back to when I was a little boy. It really all depends upon where you are.

Item #2.  You ask good questions about how humans could be causing global warming.  Pretty soon, as with cow farts, someone is going to be blaming human flatulence. (Pardon me while I go eat some chili)

Item #3: Better be careful around here Mtn Dog. You're trying to use logic where raw emotionalism and fad du jour often trump the discussion.
You are asking very good questions, challenging some folks' thinking. Well done.

I think our current snowfall can be explained by combining a damn bitter cold front coming down from the Fraser River Valley and colliding with a wet storm front moving in off the Pacific.

Doesn't happen this way often, but when it does...well, all the television weather people get to act excited.

--------------
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer." - D.H. Lawrence
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Mtn Dog
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Mtn Dog
Technohiker
PostSun Dec 21, 2008 10:20 pm 
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straydog wrote:
However, while the topic might be simple, the data and evidence is not.

The amount of CO2 that humans have added to the atmosphere since the beginning of the industrial age is a known, measured quantity taken at Mauna Loa, Hawaii.  What is so complicated about that?

Quote:
It's not just about more precip, it also involves changes in weather patterns because cooling and heating of both water and land changes at diffferent rates (thermal inertia) in different regions. Overall, global average temps go up, very little and very slowly. But the local weather patterns can change more significantly because of the different rates of heating.

That doesn't make any sense.  If the Greenhouse Effect is enhanced by additional CO2 in the atmosphere then how can it cause different rates of heating in different regions?  Doesn't the CO2 reemit infrared heat photons in all directions, some towards space, others towards earth, and the rest toward other molecules in the atmosphere?  If this is so then the heating should be evenly distributed across the globe, just like the Greenhouse Gases are in our atmosphere (though granted, water vapor obviously wouldn't be evenly distributed).

--------------
Footprints on the sands of time will never be made sitting down.
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