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thunderhead
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Joined: 14 Oct 2015
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Yes gb. Taxes and fees used by people who are not good at math, like you, to subsidize solar panels in a country that gets little sun. Thats the entire point. The incompetency is both staggering and hilarious. Solar panels at 50 degrees north! Under clouds! Hah! Titanics engineers were geniuses by comparison.
Also why are you trying to use a north america chart for germany?
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Ski
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Joined: 28 May 2005
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Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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 Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:30 pm |
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Stop worrying! I-1631 will pass in 5 weeks and that extra 14 cents a gallon tax on gasoline will solve all these problems! 
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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MtnGoat
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Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:35 pm |
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| thunderhead wrote: | | Why would you possibly have wasted money on solar a few years ago(like germany did) when it is getting so much cheaper? |
Why would you waste money on it for grid use at all, when it is an additional cost, instead of a replacement?
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:39 pm |
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| Ski wrote: | | Stop worrying! I-1631 will pass in 5 weeks and that extra 14 cents a gallon tax on gasoline will solve all these problems! |
The only thing it will solve is some subsidees desire for more public money, which they can't earn honestly in trade
Another direct example of how this mistaken cause drives up energy prices
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Ski
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Joined: 28 May 2005
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Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:46 pm |
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^ this is the kind of stuff that makes me glad that I'm an old man and knowing I'm going to die sooner than the suckers who are going to get stuck with the bill for this sham!
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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gb
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Joined: 01 Jul 2010
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gb
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Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:32 am |
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| thunderhead wrote: | | Yes gb. Taxes and fees used by people to subsidize solar panels in a country that gets little sun. Thats the entire point. |
These are consumption taxes on all forms of energy to try to reduce carbon dioxide output. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-energy-use-2018-germany.pdf
| Quote: | | Also why are you trying to use a north america chart for germany? |
You can't even remember what you posted 10 and 14 posts ago when you made a BS statement about the cost of solar energy in the US being 3x the cost of other energy. You needed to be corrected and were with a modern chart.
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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:44 am |
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FWIW: I'm restoring a '92 RV, the original genset is kaput. A new equivalent genset is $4500. The DIY solar system I added cost about $1300, including the small genset that's big enough to recharge the batteries after a string of dark cloudy days. The only thing lacking in the new system is the ability to run the rooftop air conditioner while boondocking.
I could add more panels and batteries to run the AC and I may, but it will be six months before I need AC, so I'll wait and see. Adding the solar / battery capacity to run the AC will cost maybe another $2000. So still ahead of the cost of a new genset matching the original. The argument that one needs 1:1 matching fossil fuel generating capacity to backup solar doesn't apply when the peak electrical demand corresponds with peak sunny weather.
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thunderhead
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Joined: 14 Oct 2015
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| Quote: | | you made a BS statement about the cost of solar energy in the US being 3x the cost of other energy. |
No. I stated germany has electricity costs 3x the US. I suggest reading things more carefully next time.
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thunderhead
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Joined: 14 Oct 2015
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| Quote: | | when the peak electrical demand corresponds with peak sunny weather. |
Peak summer demand does occur on a hot sunny day but unfortunately usually hits hardest at 5 to 6pm, when solar angle is pretty marginal especially later in the summer and on fixed latitude tilt home arrays. Solar generation would be some 20 to 30% of its rated capacity. Perhaps even worse is the 7 to 8pm window when solar production is often 0. Wind is often 0 during peak heat events. So you need either very expensive batteries or controllable generation capable of carrying 100% of the 8pm load or most of the 6pm load.
Now solar/wind can reduce your fuel burn at other times and even better reduce dam outflow in regions that have that luxury, but that tech aint ready to do more, yet.
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Randito
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:14 am |
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| thunderhead wrote: | | So you need either very expensive batteries or controllable generation capable of carrying 100% of the 8pm load or most of the 6pm load. |
Yes, as I said to run the AC on solar I need to add about $2000 worth of additional panels and batteries.
This still puts me $1500 ahead of just replacing the genset. Plus with the genset, one has to buy fuel (in this case propane) to fuel generator operations.
The replacement genset is so expensive because it's sized to allow someone to run the AC and the microwave at the same time while not producing a lot of noise. Some people replace their RV gensets with much cheaper "contractor" generators. But these emit sound at six times the level of the original generator -- which would make it hard to sleep on hot nights requiring AC and also enrage any other campers in the area.
Solar systems are blissfully silent.
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thunderhead
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Randito
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:45 am |
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| thunderhead wrote: | | Dont park under trees! |
I've been surprised how much power/charging I've been getting out of my panels where my RV is parked while I'm restoring the interior. It's mostly shaded and today it is overcast, but the charge controller is reading 13.7 volts, so the batteries are fully charged and this is after running the furnace earlier in the morning to warm up the interior for comfortable working. The furnace is the biggest watt consumer after the AC, drawing about 100 watts to run the blower (the heat itself comes from propane). I've replaced all the old florescent and incandescent lighting with LED lighting which cuts the draw for lightning to about 1/3 of the original.
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Wastral
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Wastral
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Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:01 am |
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| RandyHiker wrote: | | It's mostly shaded and today it is overcast, but the charge controller is reading 13.7 volts, |
Power = volts*amps. PV, voltage does not drop drastically when partially shaded, rather the amperage does. Which is a very good thing as it means the inverter or straight charger depending on setup, can still function at low power level days.
Slap Slap; 10 bugs dead, Blip Blop; Stumble Fall; Curse and Get up and Do it all Over Again; Reaching High For the Sky a Mile High; Topping Out Atop a Peak; Priceless
Slap Slap; 10 bugs dead, Blip Blop; Stumble Fall; Curse and Get up and Do it all Over Again; Reaching High For the Sky a Mile High; Topping Out Atop a Peak; Priceless
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Randito
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Randito
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Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:13 am |
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The panels actually output more like 20 volts in full sun. The controller modulates the voltage so that the batteries aren't overcharged. When the batteries are not fully charged the voltage will be less. A voltage reading of 13.7 volts is the "full" voltage setting on the controller when the panels are producing energy. After sunset the voltage drops 12.7 when the batteries are fully charged and there is no load.
So a reading of 13.7 volts means the batteries are fully charged.
I worked in the RV using its interior lights the other night and used the inverter to run some power tools, voltage dropped to 12.4 (which is 75%) the next morning after running the furnace to warm thing up. But even though the day was cloudy and the RV shaded by trees the batteries were fully recharged by 10:30. So even with reduced amperage from partial shade, the panels are charging up the batteries effectively.
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Wastral
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Wastral
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Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:49 am |
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| gb wrote: | | thunderhead wrote: | | This is not a projection by some silly journalist. This is what actual electric generation cost. |
It's clear you don't know the difference between the cost of energy production and the ultimate consumer price. Note the taxes and fees on use > in red < for those with trouble reading graphs. |
USA average AFTER taxes is ~10.5c/kWh-->13c
Wholesale is under ~4c/kWh Now add transmission+overhead. Big users get it around 8c
Only two countries in world with slightly cheaper power is Canada and China.
PS: As for solar, if you are anywhere in S. USA it makes sense. Here in cloudy Washington or anywhere in northern USA... No. Heat pump via geothermal or solar thermal makes far more sense. Also have a double compound mirror(non moving) for hot water which even works in the winter obtaining the vast majority of energy for hot water throughout the year. Couple of simple thermometers and thermostats and a couple relay's turns the pump on to store the solar thermal in old hot water tanks. Added a couple old car radiators inside the tanks(cut em open) as the feed into the hot water tank(official) and store at 150F with the electric tank set to turn on at 115F. Dirt cheap. Every roof should have them(ugly though). Electric bill went from $300/month in winter down to $150. Next project is super insulating the refrigerators/Freezers and getting the geothermal HVAC unit working at a higher COP along with better insulation. Also working at making more compound mirrors for general heating. Its much more complicated and the area requires is fairly large to heat a house which would require a very expensive ~5000gallon hot water tank to get through February. All comes down to $$$.
Slap Slap; 10 bugs dead, Blip Blop; Stumble Fall; Curse and Get up and Do it all Over Again; Reaching High For the Sky a Mile High; Topping Out Atop a Peak; Priceless
Slap Slap; 10 bugs dead, Blip Blop; Stumble Fall; Curse and Get up and Do it all Over Again; Reaching High For the Sky a Mile High; Topping Out Atop a Peak; Priceless
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