Forum Index > Stewardship > Global Warming
Previous :: Next Topic  
Author Message
MtnGoat
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 10504 | TRs
Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
Member
PostSun Oct 07, 2018 7:21 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
gb wrote:
Fusion is pie in the sky and you are about the only one at this point that considers fusion to be a viable choice. Solar and wind are already less costly to producer than fossil fuel energy plants (Business Insider).

And we come right back the real issue...what it takes to actually run a grid *plus* the additional 'cheap' costs of part time sources, is the actual cost to consumers...and cost plus more cost, is not cheaper.

--------------
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
RandyHiker
Snarky Member



Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 5811 | TRs
Location: Mobile
RandyHiker
Snarky Member
PostSun Oct 07, 2018 11:36 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
MtnGoat wrote:
And we come right back the real issue...what it takes to actually run a grid *plus* the additional 'cheap' costs of part time sources, is the actual cost to consumers...and cost plus more cost, is not cheaper.

Adding emissions controls and catalytic converters to cars also costs money. 

There is a lot less smog today than in the early '70s, sometimes it's worth paying more.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
gb
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 4903 | TRs

gb
Member
PostMon Oct 08, 2018 7:13 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
thunderhead wrote:
Im sure you think that.

You confused the generation cost of power and the price after taxes to users......
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
thunderhead
Member
Member


Joined: 14 Oct 2015
Posts: 665 | TRs

thunderhead
Member
PostMon Oct 08, 2018 12:28 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Taxes that are used to fund renewable generation count as part of the cost of renewable generation.  Duh.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
MtnGoat
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 10504 | TRs
Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
Member
PostMon Oct 08, 2018 12:38 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
RandyHiker wrote:
Adding emissions controls and catalytic converters to cars also costs money. 

There is a lot less smog today than in the early '70s, sometimes it's worth paying more.

So long as it's clear that cheaper is a misnomer at best and a lie at worst.

--------------
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
MtnGoat
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 10504 | TRs
Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
Member
PostMon Oct 08, 2018 12:40 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
thunderhead wrote:
Taxes that are used to fund renewable generation count as part of the cost of renewable generation.  Duh.

This sort of thing is why I wanted the nature of 'cheaper' power sorted out above. Accounting necessities aside, taxes for 'green' power or incentives are just as much part of a higher cost as more expensive hardware is.

--------------
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
gb
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 4903 | TRs

gb
Member
PostMon Oct 08, 2018 2:27 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
thunderhead wrote:
Taxes that are used to fund renewable generation count as part of the cost of renewable generation.

Taxes that imposed to cut energy consumption are consumption taxes plain and simple, even for you.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
RandyHiker
Snarky Member



Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 5811 | TRs
Location: Mobile
RandyHiker
Snarky Member
PostMon Oct 08, 2018 2:35 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
MtnGoat wrote:
thunderhead wrote:
Taxes that are used to fund renewable generation count as part of the cost of renewable generation.  Duh.

This sort of thing is why I wanted the nature of 'cheaper' power sorted out above. Accounting necessities aside, taxes for 'green' power or incentives are just as much part of a higher cost as more expensive hardware is.

You seem to have a fixation on the idea that green power was pitched as cheaper.   I'm not sure were you picked up this idea.  The literature I read says things like: "Becoming cost competitive with..."  and "comparable cost when hidden costs are taken into account"
Perhaps you could provide a link to literature that claimed that green energy sources would be straight up cheaper per kwh than "traditional" energy sources.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
MtnGoat
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 10504 | TRs
Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
Member
PostMon Oct 08, 2018 2:41 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
49,453 viewsJan 13, 2018, 04:00am
Renewable Energy Will Be Consistently Cheaper Than Fossil Fuels By 2020, Report Claims

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/01/13/renewable-energy-cost-effective-fossil-fuels-2020/#5a2642414ff2

Rapid cost declines made renewable energy the United States’ cheapest available source of new electricity, without subsidies, in 2017. In many parts of the U.S., building new wind is cheaper than running existing coal, while nuclear and natural gas aren’t far behind. As renewable energy costs continue their relentless decline, they keep pushing fossil fuels further from profitability – and neither trend is slowing down.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/01/23/cheap-renewables-keep-pushing-fossil-fuels-further-away-from-profitability-despite-trumps-efforts/#1d6bd776ce9a

that 'green' power will be 'cheaper' has been the drumbeat since the 90s. These are only two of the latest licks at that drum

--------------
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
RandyHiker
Snarky Member



Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 5811 | TRs
Location: Mobile
RandyHiker
Snarky Member
PostMon Oct 08, 2018 2:53 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
MtnGoat wrote:
that 'green' power will be 'cheaper' has been the drumbeat since the 90s. These are only two of the latest licks at that drum

Unlike the forecasted dates in the '90s, 2020 is pretty close, so we won't have to wait very long to find out how far off the forecasts that liberal rag "Forbes" is citing.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
thunderhead
Member
Member


Joined: 14 Oct 2015
Posts: 665 | TRs

thunderhead
Member
PostTue Oct 09, 2018 6:51 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Its really hard to compete with natural gas on cost.  In a sunny or windy location, at penetration % less than 20% solar/wind, you can compete with coal and nukes but i do not think there are any major markets in the US where they can yet beat natural gas on a level playing field.  Hawaii, some 2000nm away from heavy shipping centers, and on new land without fossil deposits of their own is i believe the one obvious spot where natural gas loses.

Not surprisingly the market has installed about 5 times as much natural gas generation(not nameplate capacity!) in recent years, verse wind and solar.


Note, when you do account for normal distribution costs and the abnormal costs of poor management, then for solar percentages less than 20% home solar in the LAX market does start to compete.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
thunderhead
Member
Member


Joined: 14 Oct 2015
Posts: 665 | TRs

thunderhead
Member
PostTue Oct 09, 2018 6:59 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Of course as solar gets cheaper the argument that "its worth paying a little more for some emissionless generation" becomes more reasonable.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
RandyHiker
Snarky Member



Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 5811 | TRs
Location: Mobile
RandyHiker
Snarky Member
PostTue Oct 09, 2018 2:25 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
thunderhead wrote:
Its really hard to compete with natural gas on cost

One interesting aspect of gas is the price varies widely by region.    I was investigating getting a CNG powered vehicle and I found that  around here prices run around $4 per gallon vs $1.70 in Salt Lake .

So gas prices vs solar are an interesting mix -- with an additional complicating factor being that more solar generation weakens the total demand for gas and thus lowers the price of gas -- making the cost advantage of solar less.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
thunderhead
Member
Member


Joined: 14 Oct 2015
Posts: 665 | TRs

thunderhead
Member
PostTue Oct 09, 2018 3:13 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Thats quite a difference, more than reported in average state prices.   We are a higher cost of living market with more taxes and further from nat gas supplies, so ya our costs will be higher than some places

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/ng_pri_sum_dcu_SUT_m.htm
(Poor hawaii)

But ya, there is plenty of local variation.   A sunny market with less natural gas access can expect to develop solar energy before a cloudy market sitting on top of a major fracking project(assuming of course that the decision makers are competent, ie more French and less German)
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
RandyHiker
Snarky Member



Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 5811 | TRs
Location: Mobile
RandyHiker
Snarky Member
PostWed Oct 24, 2018 7:20 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Avista is now seeking homeowners in Spokane for solar roofing

https://qualifysolar.lpages.co/avistanewsolarprogram/
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
  Display:     All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Forum Index > Stewardship > Global Warming
  Happy Birthday roos2er!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
   Use Disclaimer Powered by phpBB Privacy Policy