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RandyHiker
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PostThu May 16, 2019 7:54 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Any time you like. I'm down with that 100%.

Cut *all* subsidies as well, on *all* sides. 'this we deserve them cuz they got them' tit for tat BS needs to cease, by ending them.

I didn't ask whether you thought it was a good idea, I asked when it was going to happen.
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Parked Out
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PostFri May 17, 2019 7:39 pm 
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joker wrote:
It's not an either or (either this or other problems). But of course this isn't a thread about those other problem areas.

I think it's helpful in discussions like we have in this global warming thread to remember that - right, wrong or otherwise - what people are responding to is often not what's said by commenters in the thread, but to what's being said in the media and society at large.  So when the AOC-types are calling for programs to combat climate change that will cost literally trillions of dollars, then I see that as an either/or decision, unless you're of the opinion that discretionary public investment is somehow unlimited.

joker wrote:
Yes, I embrace investing in a new generation of nuclear plants.

up.gif

joker wrote:
And investing heavily into research into both mitigation and adaptation technologies and strategies is not something any of us (except perhaps the few folks on Bill Gates' level) is going to do as an individual.

No, but support for that as public policy is something that far more people can get behind, vs support for covering the landscape with wind turbines and solar panels (and apparently more dammed rivers to provide pumped hydro storage for intermittents).

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drm
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PostSun May 19, 2019 11:37 am 
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Parked Out wrote:
So when the AOC-types are calling for programs to combat climate change that will cost literally trillions of dollars, then I see that as an either/or decision

The Green New Deal has become sort of a litmus test as a concept. But if it ever gets to the legislative process, it will be broken up into pieces and subject to the normal give and take of the legislative process. At that point, it won't be either/or for most people.
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PostMon May 20, 2019 7:12 am 
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Good read from The Atlantic on expert predictions.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/how-to-predict-the-future/588040/

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MtnGoat
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PostMon May 20, 2019 8:15 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
MtnGoat wrote:
Any time you like. I'm down with that 100%.

Cut *all* subsidies as well, on *all* sides. 'this we deserve them cuz they got them' tit for tat BS needs to cease, by ending them.

I didn't ask whether you thought it was a good idea, I asked when it was going to happen.

I didn't claim you asked wether I thought it was a good idea.

It will happen when far more of us stop making excuses for subsidies for pet projects.

So far, just like not choosing to slash our own standard of living right now, without waiting to use other folks for ideas we claim are so incredibly true and important, the rationalization of why it's OK not to actually live our own arguments, holds sway for most.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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CC
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PostTue May 21, 2019 10:47 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
You can know where an electron has a probability of being, but no matter how badly you want it for whatever reason, you can never know exactly where it is, without giving up where it is headed.

MG has worked very hard at educating us on the scientific method, and on climate modeling, and apparently feels that we are now ready to learn some quantum mechanics.  I for one am excited at the prospect and am looking forward to “The Lyle Interpretation.”

BTW: MG may be the only person on the planet who has used each of the phrases “the bees knees,” “down with that,” and “your bag,” in serious discourse.  This is Guinness Record material.  And it all happened right here on NWH.

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No matter how cynical you become, it's not enough to keep up.  Jane Wagner/Lily Tomlin
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RandyHiker
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PostTue May 21, 2019 12:06 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
So far, just like not choosing to slash our own standard of living right now,

The "slash standard of living" phase is a recurring theme in MG posts on this thread.   I wonder if MG has anything specific in mind or is this just a generalized fear of any changes to the current regulatory environment.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue May 21, 2019 1:01 pm 
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CC wrote:
MG has worked very hard at educating us on the scientific method, and on climate modeling, and apparently feels that we are now ready to learn some quantum mechanics.  I for one am excited at the prospect and am looking forward to “The Lyle Interpretation.”

BTW: MG may be the only person on the planet who has used each of the phrases “the bees knees,” “down with that,” and “your bag,” in serious discourse.  This is Guinness Record material.  And it all happened right here on NWH.

That's nice.

When you get around to an actual argument, come back and let us know. Today, what we get is your implication/snark that using examples in an argument, is somehow illegitimate or erroneous. No one you already agree with, is held to this standard or gets this sort of spray.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostTue May 21, 2019 1:02 pm 
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You could
RandyHiker wrote:
The "slash standard of living" phase is a recurring theme in MG posts on this thread.   I wonder if MG has anything specific in mind or is this just a generalized fear of any changes to the current regulatory environment.

You could ask me directly...but chose snark as a virtue broadcast.

Two posters, nothing but chaff.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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RandyHiker
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PostTue May 21, 2019 5:31 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
You could
RandyHiker wrote:
The "slash standard of living" phase is a recurring theme in MG posts on this thread.   I wonder if MG has anything specific in mind or is this just a generalized fear of any changes to the current regulatory environment.

You could ask me directly...but chose snark as a virtue broadcast.

Two posters, nothing but chaff.

Ah so you claim that if I worded my question slightly differently that you would give reasoned answer.  OK MtnGoat, I ask you what specifically do you mean by "slash standard of living"
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MtnGoat
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PostTue May 21, 2019 6:38 pm 
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Yes, I claim that if you actually asked me, instead of so cleverly alluding to me but intentionally addressing some virtual audience instead, you'd already have gotten an answer. But the performative aspect of posting, was more important than the actual question. When people speaking in good faith want an answer, they don't need to employ such games.

What do I mean by slash standard of living?

Paying more for the exact same electrons than we otherwise would without boutique power sources which require standard backup anyway.

Paying more for transportation of all kinds.

Raising prices on everything whose production, transportation, or use, requires energy.

Getting less at higher cost will slash standards of living.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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RandyHiker
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PostTue May 21, 2019 7:07 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Yes, I claim that if you actually asked me, instead of so cleverly alluding to me but intentionally addressing some virtual audience instead, you'd already have gotten an answer. But the performative aspect of posting, was more important than the actual question. When people speaking in good faith want an answer, they don't need to employ such games.

What do I mean by slash standard of living?

Paying more for the exact same electrons than we otherwise would without boutique power sources which require standard backup anyway.

Paying more for transportation of all kinds.

Raising prices on everything whose production, transportation, or use, requires energy. 

Getting less at higher cost will slash standards of living.

Your response is very generic, rather than specific.

We already pay quite a bit in taxes on various forms of energy for a wide range of reasons.   For example there is a "spillway" surcharge on BPA rates to "pay" for releasing extra water in order to promote greater viability of salmon runs.

The term "slash" represents a high level of cut.  It seems you are using the term "slash" for any amount of surcharge,  even a small one.
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drm
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PostSat May 25, 2019 7:53 am 
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An article in Scientific American called Rough Weather Ahead, by Jennifer Francis, senior Scientist at Woods Hole, describes how recent research is connecting extreme weather events to climate change. I have not been able to find a link to it online. Their three "in brief" points:

  • Scientists can now show that specific extreme weather events are made worse by climate change, not just natural variability
  • Global climate change factors include more heat in the world's oceans and more heat and vapor in the atmosphere
  • Regional factors include an expanding tropical zone, a "cold blob" in the Atlantic Ocean and a disrupted polar vortex ; all can interact with natural variability
The article describes how climate change interacts with natural variability to make weather events more extreme in some cases. I have seen other similar articles. Not all extreme events are exacerbated by climate change, but there is disagreement on the edges as to where that boundary is. Blocking highs in particular are causing extreme weather to stagnate in place, leading to more extreme rain events. We have seen this frequently both with hurricanes that just sit on the coast for days, as well as other kinds of rain events that get stuck in one place.
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Parked Out
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PostTue May 28, 2019 6:29 pm 
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Excellent new video by the youtuber Real Engineering that explains why actually relying on intermittent energy (as opposed to merely adding it, while still relying on traditional sources to meet demand) is projected to be so incredibly expensive.  The video looks at the hypothetical example of replacing the Moss Landing natural gas plant in Monterey Bay, CA with solar power & battery storage.


More or less the same story with simplified back-of-the-envelope calculations, from Roger Andrews on the Energy Matters blog:

http://euanmearns.com/the-cost-of-wind-solar-power-batteries-included/

Same story again, this time from the MIT Technology Review:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611683/the-25-trillion-reason-we-cant-rely-on-batteries-to-clean-up-the-grid/

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Doppelganger
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PostFri May 31, 2019 10:05 am 
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drm wrote:
The article describes how climate change interacts with natural variability to make weather events more extreme in some cases. I have seen other similar articles. Not all extreme events are exacerbated by climate change, but there is disagreement on the edges as to where that boundary is. Blocking highs in particular are causing extreme weather to stagnate in place, leading to more extreme rain events. We have seen this frequently both with hurricanes that just sit on the coast for days, as well as other kinds of rain events that get stuck in one place.

Arkansas state emergency management spokeswoman Melody Daniel wrote:
"This is looking to be record-breaking all along the Arkansas River, and this is something we have never seen before," she said.

Kiss the world we've known goodbye. We've got some time yet, make it a nice long one. But it's changing.
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