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Tom
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PostTue Jul 16, 2019 4:58 pm 
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You have strong opinions that we have more pressing concerns. How outspoken are you on these socialist issues outside the context of debating AGW? Did you not take issue with advocates envisioning the challenge as broader than simply addressing climate change?
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RandyHiker
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PostTue Jul 16, 2019 5:06 pm 
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Parked Out wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
The idea of spending money on various other development issues rather than making changes to reduce climate change is analogous to in response to the 1854 Cholera outbreak in London to opening additional health clinics instead of closing down the Broad Street pump and later building a sewage system and drinking water supply that prevented sewage from being dumping into the drinking water supply.

Not really.  Not unless the other issues are a direct result of climate change and would be resolved by mitigating climate change.  We're talking about clean water, better nutrition, food security, reliable energy and so on.  Pretty hard to effectively improve on those by taking measures to reduce CO2.  It would be an extremely indirect approach anyway.

So what your proposal for addressing all those other social issues ?    How about impose a tax on CO2 emissions and use the funds to build clean water systems, health clinics and address food security in the developing world?  Wouldn't that achieve both objectives ?
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Jul 16, 2019 5:10 pm 
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It is just diversion like the folks when any social issue is presented say what about all the homeless vets but never act to help homeless vets.

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PostTue Jul 16, 2019 7:11 pm 
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Tom wrote:
You have strong opinions that we have more pressing concerns. How outspoken are you on these socialist issues outside the context of debating AGW?

I've been upfront in saying that I'm probably no more concerned about my fellow man than the next guy

Parked Out wrote:
I'm probably no more concerned about my fellow man than the next guy

See, I really did say that.  But since when is it 'socialist' to point out that many populations have what you might call more pressing concerns than climate change?  I haven't suggested that the US or the OECD or whoever is supposed to go around solving the world's problems.  A nation solving its own problems acts in its own best interests to solve the problems that are most beneficial to its people (ideally, obviously).  So I don't see how your criticism sidesteps the issue.  Do you think that nobody has a more immediate issue than climate change?  That was more or less my earlier question.

Tom wrote:
Did you not take issue with advocates envisioning the challenge as broader than simply addressing climate change?

I don't know what you mean by that so you'll have to be more specific.  What do you mean by 'the challenge?'

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John
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PostTue Jul 16, 2019 7:45 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
So what your proposal for addressing all those other social issues?

I don't have any proposal for addressing specific issues.  My proposal is that people should pay attention to which issues to address first when they have to decide how to allocate limited resources for maximum benefit.

RandyHiker wrote:
How about impose a tax on CO2 emissions and use the funds to build clean water systems, health clinics and address food security in the developing world?  Wouldn't that achieve both objectives ?

I think generally an effective carbon tax would be difficult to achieve and whether it's a good idea probably depends on what your goals are.  If you're a country that's already energy deficient, it's probably not a great idea and as likely as not to be counterproductive.  Or what if you need a dozen energy-intensive desalination plants on the coast to preserve your aquifers?  Economic development might be the best way to make yourself safe from the climate whether the climate is changing or not.

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Tom
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PostTue Jul 16, 2019 8:02 pm 
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Well you seem to think a holistic approach gives rise to conspiracy, then you ask how to prioritize other needs in a solution, then feign ignorance as to what the challenge is.
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PostTue Jul 16, 2019 8:46 pm 
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Tom wrote:
Well you seem to think a holistic approach gives rise to conspiracy, then you ask how to prioritize other needs in a solution, then feign ignorance as to what the challenge is.

So the 'holistic approach' you're talking about is AOC's Green New Deal with the economic transformation and all that?  That's US-specific and I'm thinking more of the developing world, climate change being a global issue and all... India's 1.3 billion people, etc.  But it still comes down to what action would provide the most benefit to human society, given the variety and extent of social & environmental ills people face.  Is fighting climate change #1 in your book?  Should India's top goal be to reduce carbon emissions?

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Tom
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PostTue Jul 16, 2019 9:17 pm 
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No idea what their #1 priority should be.  What do you think it should be?
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PostTue Jul 16, 2019 9:45 pm 
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Tom wrote:
No idea what their #1 priority should be.  What do you think it should be?

They need to develop a water management plan.  Don't know if that's #1 but it has to rank pretty highly.

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RandyHiker
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PostTue Jul 16, 2019 10:24 pm 
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Parked Out wrote:
Or what if you need a dozen energy-intensive desalination plants on the coast to preserve your aquifers?

You should research your examples a bit more completely -- Israel has developed desalination technology that uses a fraction of the energy required by conventional methods.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/534996/megascale-desalination/

Israel is strongly motivated to develop efficient desalination as there is very limited fresh water in the country and has very limited oil production (some 800 barrels a day).
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PostWed Jul 17, 2019 6:50 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
You should research your examples a bit more completely -- Israel has developed desalination technology that uses a fraction of the energy required by conventional methods.

Reverse osmosis is a conventional method.  The Sorek plant does better than average on energy use but desal is still relatively energy-intensive.

"I recently toured the Sorek plant, the largest desal plant in the world, which provides about 20 percent of Israel’s potable water. One of the things that struck me, other than the sheer size, was how energy was a front-and-center concern. Since desal plants need constant power – and a lot of it – energy is by far the most expensive part of running the plant. Groundwater desal is highly energy-intensive, and seawater even more so – power is estimated at about half of seawater desal plants’ entire operating costs."

http://blogs.edf.org/energyexchange/2017/01/30/lowering-desalinations-energy-footprint-lessons-from-israel/

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RandyHiker
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PostWed Jul 17, 2019 6:59 am 
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Parked Out wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
You should research your examples a bit more completely -- Israel has developed desalination technology that uses a fraction of the energy required by conventional methods.

Reverse osmosis is a conventional method.  The Sorek plant does better than average on energy use but desal is still relatively energy-intensive.

"I recently toured the Sorek plant, the largest desal plant in the world, which provides about 20 percent of Israel’s potable water. One of the things that struck me, other than the sheer size, was how energy was a front-and-center concern. Since desal plants need constant power – and a lot of it – energy is by far the most expensive part of running the plant. Groundwater desal is highly energy-intensive, and seawater even more so – power is estimated at about half of seawater desal plants’ entire operating costs."

http://blogs.edf.org/energyexchange/2017/01/30/lowering-desalinations-energy-footprint-lessons-from-israel/

It also contains this quote:

Quote:

Energy efficiency: Israel is home to the two most energy-efficient desal facilities in the world: Hadera and Sorek, respectively. Sorek looks to reduce its energy consumption at every step of the process, like its energy recovery system, which captures energy from the brine stream that would have otherwise been wasted and uses it to power pumps. Unfortunately, U.S. desal plants tend to be behind the tech curve because the approval process takes so long. With a robust, more streamlined approvals process and newer technology, American plants could maximize efficiency as Israel does.
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MtnGoat
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PostWed Jul 17, 2019 9:32 am 
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Tom wrote:
Which faux claim are regurgitating now?

None, just reality as it actually is. The predictions have been wrong, along with failing to predict the pause. Reworking failed predictions by post failure numbers juggling does not count as success in actual science.

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PostWed Jul 17, 2019 9:40 am 
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Tom wrote:
You realize that has been posted already right, including the Post article with full context?

FWIW, I don't know how you tackle climate change without addressing how you change the economy.

I don't know how you tackle climate change without all the true believers ceasing to wait for someone else to take action, and making the drastic cuts they claim are necessary.

No one else was put here to make living your standards easier for you.

And you're evading the point of the content posted...they are using climate change as a tool to obtain what they want for their political reasons to begin with. They are not capitalists who decided govt imposed control is necessary, they are socialists who use AGW as a tool to get their political ends met.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostWed Jul 17, 2019 9:43 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
IMHO:  MtnGoat keeps reposting the same denialist stuff because he doesn't care what happens to human society past 2050.

Wrong. I care that people's lives, rights, resources, choices, and standard of living are not harmed to 2050 and beyond, for reasons which fly in the face of actual science.

Now that I've informed you on what you cannot know unless I tell you, because you're not the expert on anyone's mind or reasons but your own, nor can you be...

you can demonstrate learning by accepting the fact.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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