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Brian R
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 9:51 pm 
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Tom wrote:
PO, your agenda seems to be to come to NWH and post in this echo chamber.  No TRs in 7 years.  Last 3 pages of your posts all seem to be in this thread.  I didn't bother to keep clicking to see when the last time was you posted in another topic but quick search in the forums reveals of your 490 posts there are:

430 in Stewardship
31 in Trip Reports
19 in Trail Talk
8 in Food
1 in Saloon
1 in other forums

Tom, you don't seem to uphold this standard universally, as I've pointed out in the past. Anne Elk comes to mind; endless soapboxing with narry a TR. Have you called her out? No. I know you pride yourself on a site fair & balanced--and you do better than most. I think. But you have some serious blinders on. Worse, maybe, is you have the power to evaporate this entire thread but choose to troll and chomp bait same as the rest.
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Parked Out
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 10:06 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
I mean I also don't understand how hikers in WA can see dozens of basins that held glaciers so recently they (the empty basins) haven't been colonized by forest yet, and think it's not getting warmer on average.

On my phone again so i won't repost the link at the moment but I just recently posted a link to a great NW climate site that has data on temps, precip and snowpack going back over 100 years.  Avg temps clearly rising.  So why would I think otherwise?  Also, have you seen IPCC data showing greater loss from upland glaciers worldwide in the first half of the 20th century than in the second?  I've posted it more than once.

Edit:  https://climate.washington.edu/climate-data/trendanalysisapp/

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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 10:10 pm 
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Tom wrote:
PO, your agenda seems to be to come to NWH and post in this echo chamber.  No TRs in 7 years.  Last 3 pages of your posts all seem to be in this thread.  I didn't bother to keep clicking to see when the last time was you posted in another topic but quick search in the forums reveals of your 490 posts there are:

430 in Stewardship
31 in Trip Reports
19 in Trail Talk
8 in Food
1 in Saloon
1 in other forums

Looks okay to me.  Am I breaking a rule?  Better stats than some, I'd argue.

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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 10:22 pm 
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RayD wrote:
Parked Out wrote:
RayD wrote:

I'll just point out your agendas. Sorry if that upsets you.

Actually it upsets me that you won't when I keep asking you to.

What I see as your and Goats agenda? Ok. Tell me if I'm wrong but I see a Libertarian Ayn Randian view that government is the problem when it comes to addressing most any issue.

Since AGW can't be addressed by individuals alone, it must not exist!

I definitely have a libertarian streak but not hardcore by any measure. And I've never said AGW doesn't exist so you're offbase there.  I'm somewhat agnostic on how much humanity is responsible for current warming - not the first time I've said that.  And France did a damn fine job decarbonizing their electricity sector for a couple of decades so I'm not opposed to gov't solutions in principle.  So overall you missed it pretty badly, but thanks for taking a stab at it.

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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 10:41 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
All of this is just like climate science.  If you believe in the scientific method's ability to find the truth about reality, why do you think it's wrong in this case when the people involved know more than you do about it?  How could this be a global conspiracy involving millions of people, that only a small fraction of folks can see through?  How does any of this make sense to anybody?

For me, this is not my first science rodeo.  I spent years and read literally over a thousand scientific papers on a contentious issue in anthropology, and through that experience learned what science is like when an entire -ology is comprised of one political party (cultural anthropologists are 99.9% left-wing; physical anthropologists not so much).  Then a similar experience in nutrition science, now climate science.  So for me the halo over 'science' as practiced in real life is well-tarnished.

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RandyHiker
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 11:52 pm 
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Parked Out wrote:
For me, this is not my first science rodeo.  I spent years and read literally over a thousand scientific papers on a contentious issue in anthropology, and through that experience learned what science is like when an entire -ology is comprised of one political party (cultural anthropologists are 99.9% left-wing; physical anthropologists not so much).  Then a similar experience in nutrition science, now climate science.  So for me the halo over 'science' as practiced in real life is well-tarnished

Yeah, It's almost like the thinking skills that scientists learn for their professional careers effects the way in which they view human relations and politics.
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Tom
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 12:57 am 
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Parked Out wrote:
Tom wrote:
PO, your agenda seems to be to come to NWH and post in this echo chamber.  No TRs in 7 years.  Last 3 pages of your posts all seem to be in this thread.  I didn't bother to keep clicking to see when the last time was you posted in another topic but quick search in the forums reveals of your 490 posts there are:

430 in Stewardship
31 in Trip Reports
19 in Trail Talk
8 in Food
1 in Saloon
1 in other forums

Looks okay to me.  Am I breaking a rule?  Better stats than some, I'd argue.

Doesn't seem like it adds much value to the site.  One thing if folks come to this site to contribute hiking related content and throw in their two cents in contentions topics.  However if you contribute nothing else but sawing the sawdust in topics like this it just sucks energy out of the forum.
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Tom
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 1:04 am 
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Brian R wrote:
Tom wrote:
PO, your agenda seems to be to come to NWH and post in this echo chamber.  No TRs in 7 years.  Last 3 pages of your posts all seem to be in this thread.  I didn't bother to keep clicking to see when the last time was you posted in another topic but quick search in the forums reveals of your 490 posts there are:

430 in Stewardship
31 in Trip Reports
19 in Trail Talk
8 in Food
1 in Saloon
1 in other forums

Tom, you don't seem to uphold this standard universally, as I've pointed out in the past. Anne Elk comes to mind; endless soapboxing with narry a TR. Have you called her out? No. I know you pride yourself on a site fair & balanced--and you do better than most. I think. But you have some serious blinders on. Worse, maybe, is you have the power to evaporate this entire thread but choose to troll and chomp bait same as the rest.

What the heck are you talking about?  I just clicked on Anne's posting history.  Compare the diversity of the forums and topics she participates in as well as the tone of the posts.  Not sure why you have such an issue with her but then you thought TW was a liberal. dizzy.gif
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 6:38 am 
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Tom wrote:
Doesn't seem like it adds much value to the site.  One thing if folks come to this site to contribute hiking related content and throw in their two cents in contentions topics.  However if you contribute nothing else but sawing the sawdust in topics like this it just sucks energy out of the forum.

Pretty sure this thread wouldn't have over 10,000 posts if the content here wasn't adding both value and energy to the forum.

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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 6:44 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Yeah, It's almost like the thinking skills that scientists learn for their professional careers effects the way in which they view human relations and politics.

Yeah, thinking skills is exactly what a lot of those folks were missing.

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 9:05 am 
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RayD wrote:
Fascinating! And I always was of the impression that you were a creature of pure logic, without the slight taint of preconception when it comes to your judgements on whatever we bloviate on. Heavens!!

What I find of interest is the way you imply that "agenda", at least yours, is akin to the constant radius of a circle.  So your agenda is true, right and constant and not to be evaluated. I find it difficult to shake my head and laugh at the same time!

But watch me!  I can do it. lol.gif  lol.gif   dizzy.gif  dizzy.gif

I'm hardly responsible for your impressions.

One can pursue goals like pure logic, but they're unattainable. The best that occurs is consistent tries and correction of flaws found as you go.

Any knowledge requires preconceptions, the issue is their validity in application to the ideas in question and of course the validity of how the knowledge of them is acquired....and examination of the basis of validity itself, etc.

What I find of interest is the way you reinterpret everything argued in creative ways not evident from the clear language of the posts. I stated that everyone has an agenda and this fact, that everyone with a goal has an agenda, is non remarkable and doesn't need mentioning any more than other things broadly known...like the fact that one types what one intends to type, or that a circle is defined by a constant radius.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 9:07 am 
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RayD wrote:
This isn't the only AGW thread. There were others, years ago with similar discussions.

I was involved in the details, the discussions, the facts, etc. Nothing has changed in the discussion since then. To get involved again for me is simply a case of whack-a mole.

But have at it!

I'll just point out your agendas. Sorry if that upsets you.

And that's the problem...some things have not changed while time has passed and changed the conditions of the argument, to wit...numerous predictions of disaster and all kinds of claims have been falsified by time.

In real sciences, when predictions are falsified so are the theories behind them.

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Tom
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 9:12 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
all kinds of claims have been falsified by time.

In real sciences, when predictions are falsified so are the theories behind them.

But most importantly the claim that AGW isn't real hasn't falsified!  You and I are right about that one for sure thanks to real science.
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 9:12 am 
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Cyclopath wrote:
Here's what I don't understand:

Everybody believes that ultrasounds and cancer and radiation and heavier than air flight aren't conspiracies They (The Scientists) are perpetrating on the world.  Nobody in this forum can build an ultrasound machine, and we all know it; none of us are in a position to say "those people are lying and only me and a few others know the truth."  Everybody in here believes that satellites and black holes exist, even though people who work on them get paid and would lose their funding if they spouted nonsense. All of this is just like climate science.  If you believe in the scientific method's ability to find the truth about reality, why do you think it's wrong in this case when the people involved know more than you do about it?  How could this be a global conspiracy involving millions of people, that only a small fraction of folks can see through?  How does any of this make sense to anybody?

I mean I also don't understand how hikers in WA can see dozens of basins that held glaciers so recently they (the empty basins) haven't been colonized by forest yet, and think it's not getting warmer on average.

None of this is just like climate science.

In none of those areas do the scientists refuse to accept falsification, use 'we all agree' as evidence, use models which do not represent actual climate processes crucial to the entire issue, like clouds, claim no one can critique issues which they do know about, or claim correlation is evidence of causation. In none of the true sciences you mention do they use rotating methods like plate juggling, switching to one after being called on the first, then to the third, then back again to #1 like it's a new one.

I believe in sciences ability to find the truth when the scientific method is followed without exception or excuses, and when those promoting it do not need the use of logical fallacies, personal attacks, or all the other proofs which show science is not what is occurring. Sciences do not let politicians and technocrats modify the output of their results...but the IPCC does.

People who 'know more than I do' about one thing, do NOT get to skate on committing errors which are well known, because science, on other aspects of their claims. It is non scientific to claim that because I am not a dendochronology expert, that I cannot critique claims on such matters on the basis of flaws in their math, method, or statistics...none of which rely on knowledge of the narrow sub specialty. EVERY single component of a claim from the most detailed to the most basic must be a true statement, or else the claim is false.

That is science. Climate 'science' not following these methods, is not science.

I don't know who claimed it was a global conspiracy, so I cannot address that claim. What I do know is that people independently adopting errors of the same kind results in a lot of people with a common error.

The fact is that the single common link to all the claims, the modeling, is riddled with errors of practice, data, underlying knowledge, and is not fit for purpose. Models are not evidence, and yet they tie all the claims to catastrophe into the narrative.

To sum it up..climate 'science' is not treated like the actual sciences because they do not follow the scientific method to the letter like the real sciences.

No real science relies upon logical fallacies.

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 9:22 am 
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Tom wrote:
But most importantly the claim that AGW isn't real hasn't falsified!  You and I are right about that one for sure thanks to real science.

You've still got a ways to go. Logic does not require the proof of a negative.

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