| Previous :: Next Topic |
| Author |
Message |
Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9514 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
|
Randito
Snarky Member
|
 Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:36 pm |
|
|
| Parked Out wrote: | | But the punchline here apropos of the question at hand: "The electric car might be great in a couple of decades but as a way to tackle global warming now it does virtually nothing." |
| Lao Tzu wrote: | | a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step |
|
| Back to top |
  
|
|
Stefan
Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 5093 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Stefan
Member
|
Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:40 pm |
|
|
| Parked Out wrote: | | Okay, what do you specifically propose doing here in the US to reduce CO2 emissions that's going to accomplish anything more than making you feel virtuous? |
Two solutions. 1) stop sexual intercourse 2) plague
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12837 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:44 pm |
|
|
| RandyHiker wrote: | | For myself, I've almost exclusively used public transportation and bicycles during the last year. I've driven cars only about 2,000 miles during the last year. |
Randy, it's cool that you live in an area and work in an occupation that allows you to do that.
For the rest of the population, that might not be a viable option.
Consider that over half of the private vehicles in the western US are light trucks - many of which are owned and operated of necessity, particularly in rural areas where no public transportation options exist, and where no battery-powered "EV" would be practical - a guy would have a hell of a time trying to haul his gear to an oil rig or run a farm in a "Tata" coupe.
I have an acquaintance who just sold his "old" Tesla so he could buy a new Tesla. It's a really pretty car - 0-60 mph acceleration is mind-boggling - it's absolutely silent - but it wouldn't be worth a damn for trying to get to a trailhead or fishing hole, you can't haul firewood with it, or tow a 26-foot boat (he has a 3/4 Ton Tahoe for that.)
So while these tiny "EV" cars might be just the ticket for urban commuters, they're not worth a damn for people whose occupations (or lifestyles) require a "working" vehicle.
But hey, show me one that will work for me and I'll consider it. My current gig requires me to haul: lawnmower; wheelbarrow; 16-gallon shop-vac; blower; extension cords; leaf rake; bow rake; 6-foot spud bar; round-point shovel; spade; scoop shovel; edger; 5-gallon bucket; 16-foot extension ladder; 8-foot stepladder; and some oddball stuff like squeegee, paper towels, gloves, etc.
Give me your best recommendation: Tesla? Leaf? Prius? 
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9514 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
|
Randito
Snarky Member
|
Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:45 pm |
|
|
| Stefan wrote: | | Two solutions. 1) stop sexual intercourse 2) plague |
The more humane approach is ensuring human rights for women, including education. Birth rate and female literacy are inversely co-related.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Klapton
Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 940 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Klapton
Member
|
Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:01 pm |
|
|
| RandyHiker wrote: | | Another issue is that our economy's dependence on imported oil has compelled us to engage in bloody wars in the middle east. |
There was no compulsion at all. It was a choice. A choice made so that some ridiculously rich people could become insanely rich. And so police state control freaks could expand their control.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9514 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
|
Randito
Snarky Member
|
Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:06 pm |
|
|
| Ski wrote: | | For the rest of the population, that might not be a viable option.
Consider that over half of the private vehicles in the western US are light trucks |
The vast majority (80%) of Americans live in big cities/suburbs, so "the rest of the population" is a smaller factor than you are thinking -- I favor figuring out ways to reduce the emissions of urban dwellers as a priority. Millions of cars creep along at idle in Southern California (and other big cities) everyday -- there are better ways.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WANative
Member
Joined: 09 May 2016
Posts: 277 | TRs | Pics
|
|
WANative
Member
|
Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:25 pm |
|
|
| RandyHiker wrote: | | Parked Out wrote: | | Yet the U.S. federal government essentially subsidizes electric-car buyers with up to $7,500. In addition, more than $5.5 billion in federal grants and loans go directly to battery and electric-car manufacturers like California-based Fisker Automotive and Tesla Motors. This is a very poor deal for taxpayers. |
Better or worse deal for the tax payers than the $61 billion for Gulf War I and the 4 trillion for Gulf War II ?
Not to mention the $37.5 billion annually spent subsidizing the oil and gas industries in the USA.
I say again if the "Price at the Pump" included the costs of these subsidies and the costs of the wars to ensure stable access to mid-east oil -- EV would be far more popular. |
And the Libyan, Egyptian and soon to be Iranian interventions.
I am with you in regards to just letting the theocratic sandpits in the middle-east burn.
We just have to go about our energy independence without any sort of carbon tax that will give further money to the problem of large central government and Wall Street "banks" (goldman sachs etc) that want their hands on that tax money.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WANative
Member
Joined: 09 May 2016
Posts: 277 | TRs | Pics
|
|
WANative
Member
|
Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:26 pm |
|
|
| RandyHiker wrote: | | The more humane approach is ensuring human rights for women, including education. Birth rate and female literacy are inversely co-related. |
Countries with the lowest birth rates and highest education rates for women produce the most carbon per person.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WANative
Member
Joined: 09 May 2016
Posts: 277 | TRs | Pics
|
|
WANative
Member
|
Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:29 pm |
|
|
| Ski wrote: | | So while these tiny "EV" cars might be just the ticket for urban commuters, they're not worth a damn for people whose occupations (or lifestyles) require a "working" vehicle. |
All true. As was said way back in this thread, it's all about the batteries.
Solve the energy storage problem and you solve the issue of energy supply and (if you believe it's a problem) carbon output.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Parked Out
Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2011
Posts: 508 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles, WA |
| WANative wrote: | | I am with you in regards to just letting the theocratic sandpits in the middle-east burn.
We just have to go about our energy independence without any sort of carbon tax that will give further money to the problem of large central government and Wall Street "banks" (goldman sachs etc) that want their hands on that tax money. |
Agree 100%.
| Quote: | | Countries with the lowest birth rates and highest education rates for women produce the most carbon per person. |
Pretty strong correlation between energy usage and any number of societal goods, environmental protection being one of them.
| Quote: | | Solve the energy storage problem and you solve the issue of energy supply and (if you believe it's a problem) carbon output. |
The problem with storage as it relates to renewables is that it further reduces the EROI (energy return on energy investment). It's an additional energy input that has to be made up before EROI becomes positive and net energy is produced. It's a fundamental problem for wind & solar because they already don't produce much net energy.
Good piece on EROI here:
https://bravenewclimate.com/2014/08/22/catch-22-of-energy-storage/
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9514 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
|
Randito
Snarky Member
|
Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:49 pm |
|
|
| WANative wrote: | | RandyHiker wrote: | | The more humane approach is ensuring human rights for women, including education. Birth rate and female literacy are inversely co-related. |
Countries with the lowest birth rates and highest education rates for women produce the most carbon per person. |
This isn't exactly correct -- Qatar has the highest per capital CO2 output in the world and while considerably more progressive than other countries in the region could improve.
Saudi Arabia has CO2 per captia emissions in the same ballpark as the USA, but women are very restricted.
My point is that regardless of the per capital CO2 emissions at the current time -- humane measures to reduce the birth rate will reduce the population related CO2 emissions going forward. In a generation it is better to have twice as many people using twice as much energy each than to have six times as many people using twice as much each.
This also why it useful to develop more efficient and lower carbon energy technologies -- so that people in the developing world may achieve similar lifestyles as in "the west" but emit less CO2 per capita in doing so.
In 2100 the USA is estimated to have a population of 450 million, Nigeria is projected to have a population of 752 million and India 1659 million, China 1005 million, the Democratic Republic of Congo 388 million. If everyone is driving Ford F-150s -- the current atmospheric CO2 levels will seems quaint.
I think that figuring out how to provide decent lives for all those people will require a more thoughtful approach to energy (and a host of other issues) than "Drill baby drill".
A straight up "Carbon Tax" seems like a blunt instrument -- I'm certain that other solutions can be found to improve the prospects of decent lifestyle for future generations, environmental protection and social justice. But it will be harder to achieve those goals the longer we pretend that nothing is happening, nothing should be done and it is somebody else's problem.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12837 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:45 pm |
|
|
| RandyHiker wrote: | | Millions of cars creep along at idle in Southern California (and other big cities) everyday -- there are better ways. |
There already were better ways in place - that were paid for, by the way - up until Eisenhower signed the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956, which put the wheels in motion to build the Interstate Freeway System.
Provisions in the bill, written for General Motors, eliminated the existing light rail and streetcar systems that were then in place in most urban cities, a small remnant of which remains in San Francisco.
This was done so General Motors Corporation could sell more GM Coach busses to municipalities - busses powered by diesel engines.
But I digress....
The better way would be to get past the reliance on internal combustion gasoline-powered engines (and the current version of battery-powered vehicles) and figure out an alternative power source for personal transportation.
The current generation of battery-powered automobiles isn't going to cut it. Too spendy, not enough range.
| RandyHiker wrote: | | "... it will be harder to achieve those goals the longer we pretend that nothing is happening, nothing should be done and it is somebody else's problem." |
I don't see anybody here saying anything along those lines at all. The differences of opinion seem to be more about the "how" part.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 7464 | TRs | Pics
Location: The Hermitage |
|
Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?
|
Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:51 pm |
|
|
Hydrogen fuel cells solve the problem of range. Honda has shown that HFC vehicles are practical through real world testing a small lease fleet of them in CA. I'm not sure why no one talks about HFCs as a practical alternative...?
While most pure EVs are small, the Tesla Model S is not what most people would consider a small car. Battery powered EVs are capable of ranges up to 200 miles, though most are less currently. The problem is the recharge cycle. If you want to drive long distances you would end up sitting around a lot waiting for recharges.
My idea to solve this is to standardize the battery form-factor and replace gas stations with battery stations. The battery could be sized in such a way that it is essentially a cartridge that could easily be slid into and out of the car so you'd pull into a station, slide out the old battery and plug in a freshly charged unit. There could be varying levels of amp-hours available for varying costs.
There are a couple ways in which tax dollars could be spent to help the overall situation: First, upgrade our nation's energy grid to bring it into the 21st century. This would create a lot of jobs in the process and allow for more efficient energy transmisson and make alternatives like wind and solar more practical as energy could be more easily transmitted from areas with excesses to areas of high demand.
Second, build real, high speed rail systems between major population centers. This would be especially useful here in the West were distances are long. The idea of being able to get on a train and be in LA within a day or maybe Portland in a couple hours (without having to sit in I-5 traffic) sounds good to me. Of course, the airline industry wouldn't like it...
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12837 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:31 pm |
|
|
| Bedivere wrote: | | the Tesla Model S is not what most people would consider a small car. |
no, it isn't... looked to be at least as big as IJ's Camry. really a pretty car.
a bit out of my budget, though.
the root problem here, in case anybody's missed it, isn't "global warming".
the problem is the goddam oil companies are calling the shots, and thwarting every effort to come up with alternatives.
let's not kid ourselves here. they have a vested interest in insuring that we stay on their needle until hell freezes over (or they pump the last drop of oil out of the ground, whichever comes first.)
banks and car manufacturers (at least GM and Ford and Chrysler) are in cahoots with 'em.
we could have followed Brazil's lead and gone with a viable ethanol program, but big oil and big ag had to get their fingers into the pie and we got what we got (which is really kind of a twisted joke once you start crunching the numbers.)
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WANative
Member
Joined: 09 May 2016
Posts: 277 | TRs | Pics
|
|
WANative
Member
|
Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:33 pm |
|
|
| RandyHiker wrote: | | This isn't exactly correct -- Qatar has the highest per capital CO2 output in the world and while considerably more progressive than other countries in the region could improve.Saudi Arabia has CO2 per captia emissions in the same ballpark as the USA |
This isn't because all their citizens (even the poorest) have access to the "basics" like here in the United States.
It's because all of their electricity is generated by burning oil,
And,
Because they are large oil producers and refiners. This means they flare a lot of casing gas at the wellhead and byproduct gases generated at the refinery as well as the oil that's burned to distill/crack petroleum into it's different products.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate NWHikers.net earns from qualifying purchases when you use our link(s). |
