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joker
seeker
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
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Location: state of confusion |
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joker
seeker
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 Wed May 03, 2017 10:15 am |
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Well, yes. If you don't believe what those academies to which drm refers (which are much more than letter-jumbles, though that's a nice subtle but meaningless attack on them) have concluded, then sure. If you allow, just for the purpose of discussion, that a cost might actually exist and will increase over time for actions taken now, then it begs an interesting policy question of what if anything to try to do about it. IMO getting the cost attached to the consumption is one smart step. Smarter than a rats nest of subsidies to production level technologies.
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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Wed May 03, 2017 10:46 am |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | Thanks for being upfront. The obvious one is the correct one...no human caused warming, no costs 'imposed' by what doesn't exist. |
Thanks for making it more clear that you are firmly in the "global warming is a hoax" camp.
I suspect that no presentation of evidence will cause you to reevaluate that belief.
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Wed May 03, 2017 1:56 pm |
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I'm always open actual evidence, you betcha.
However, facts are nothing without the logic they are used in concert with, and so long as it follows classical scientific method as understood in every other science, to the letter, I'm good with it.
This, of course, cuts off the use of untestable models at the knees. It also means temperature records modified for modeling consumption yet inferred to be actual temperatures measured somewhere, don't count either. There's a bunch more, I bet we find 'em. 
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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drm
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drm
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Wed May 03, 2017 2:05 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | I'm always open actual evidence, you betcha. |
There is a vast quantity of actual evidence. But if despite that you don't think there is any, then we are wasting our time debating it.
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Wed May 03, 2017 2:14 pm |
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Oh, I know there is a vast amount of evidence.
As I noted, it's the claims you make *using* the evidence which are the issue. Science is only as valuable as it's epistemology, because it's all about the proper application of ideas to claims and evidence.
Such details are the sole things making actual science what it is.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Wed May 03, 2017 2:47 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | Oh, I know there is a vast amount of evidence.
As I noted, it's the claims you make *using* the evidence which are the issue. Science is only as valuable as it's epistemology, because it's all about the proper application of ideas to claims and evidence.
Such details are the sole things making actual science what it is. |
Uh Huh
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds
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CC
cascade curmudgeon
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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CC
cascade curmudgeon
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Mon May 08, 2017 10:31 am |
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| RandyHiker wrote: | | MtnGoat wrote: | | Thanks for being upfront. The obvious one is the correct one...no human caused warming, no costs 'imposed' by what doesn't exist. |
Thanks for making it more clear that you are firmly in the "global warming is a hoax" camp.
I suspect that no presentation of evidence will cause you to reevaluate that belief. |
Exactly. There is no point arguing with MG. He is NWHiker's poster boy for both the backfire and Dunning-Kruger effects.
First your legs go, then you lose your reflexes, then you lose your friends. Willy Pep
First your legs go, then you lose your reflexes, then you lose your friends. Willy Pep
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Mon May 08, 2017 11:16 am |
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| RandyHiker wrote: | | MtnGoat wrote: | | Oh, I know there is a vast amount of evidence.
As I noted, it's the claims you make *using* the evidence which are the issue. Science is only as valuable as it's epistemology, because it's all about the proper application of ideas to claims and evidence.
Such details are the sole things making actual science what it is. |
Uh Huh
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds |
"Facts" *shouldn't* change you're mind..... when they're not facts.
Contentions are not facts.
Models are not evidence. This, is a fact.
Perhaps we need to discuss what facts are. I know.
Do you?
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Mon May 08, 2017 11:18 am |
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| CC wrote: | | Exactly. There is no point arguing with MG. He is NWHiker's poster boy for both the backfire and Dunning-Kruger effects. |
Sort of. There is no point in attempting to use peer pressure or groupthink to argue with me.
I don't outsource my judgement. To anyone.
If you don't have science arguments which follow proper method to the letter, don't bother trying to zoom me with crap. Insult me, whatever. Denigrate me sticking to the details, where science actually lives, fine. Play 'they all say' games till you're blue in the face..because what 'they all say' is *not* a standard for physical, empirical facts and never has been. Facts don't need political methods to achieve fact status.
So insult me again, and as often as you like. It shows something about the nature of the assaulter(s)......and that something isn't good. Other folks manage to disagree without using those methods.
Can you?
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Mon May 08, 2017 11:51 am |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | |
"Facts" *shouldn't* change you're mind..... when they're not facts. |
Perhaps if you had read the article in detail you would have seen that people are very capable of rejecting facts that don't fit in their existing mental framework -- sometimes engaging in extraordinary mental gymnastics to dismiss or discount facts that would require them to re-evaluate their position.
Sort of like what you just did with your | MtnGoat wrote: | | when they're not facts. |
So the question remains whether you would impartially consider any evidence concerning climate.
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Mon May 08, 2017 12:09 pm |
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| RandyHiker wrote: | Perhaps if you had read the article in detail you would have seen that people are very capable of rejecting facts that don't fit in their existing mental framework -- sometimes engaging in extraordinary mental gymnastics to dismiss or discount facts that would require them to re-evaluate their position.
Sort of like what you just did with your | MtnGoat wrote: | | when they're not facts. |
So the question remains whether you would impartially consider any evidence concerning climate. |
I did read the article. Nothing I said contradicted anything in the article. Obviously people are entirely capable of rejecting facts...we see it in this thread *continually* with the acceptance of arguments and methods which have *never* been part of the scientific method...but are used now as if they are and always have been. "Consensus". Untestable, hand tuned models as 'evidence'. And plenty more.
So I know people can reject facts, you betcha.
Science is a detailed epistemology. If you don't follow the rules, you're not arguing, or doing, science. You're doing something else.
I neither need nor use gymnastics. All I do is stick exactly to the epistemology without any shortcuts. And warmism needs those shortcuts, which is the sign of a problem.
I impartially consider all actual facts. The slight warming of the earth. Increased CO2 levels. The factual uncertainty of the predictions in the face of the claimed outcomes. There are all kinds of facts I accept openly just fine. It's the fake facts I don't accept, like any argument involving human causes of warming being proven, or worst of all, a matter of consensus.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Mon May 08, 2017 1:44 pm |
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Yeah -- those NASA scientists are just making stuff up.
https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
| Quote: | | The current warming trend is of particular significance because most of it is extremely likely (greater than 95 percent probability) to be the result of human activity since the mid-20th century and proceeding at a rate that is unprecedented over decades to millennia. |
Also remember that our scientific knowledge is almost certainly "wrong" or at least not the the complete picture. Sir Issac Newton's theories on motion were the best available science for centuries -- until Einstein came up with better theories of motion.
So it is certainly possible that later scientific discoveries will modify our understanding of the relationship between human CO2 emissions and climate. However to date the studies that refute the prevailing view are from researchers funded by corporations in the business of selling fossil fuels. So I think we should be at least equally sketical of their results of non fossil fuel funded research.
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Tom
Admin
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
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Tom
Admin
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Mon May 08, 2017 2:07 pm |
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That newyorker article was quite interesting, even if it didn't necessarily tell me anything I didn't know from observing threads like this. 
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Mon May 08, 2017 2:51 pm |
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| RandyHiker wrote: | Yeah -- those NASA scientists are just making stuff up.
https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
| Quote: | | The current warming trend is of particular significance because most of it is extremely likely (greater than 95 percent probability) to be the result of human activity since the mid-20th century and proceeding at a rate that is unprecedented over decades to millennia. |
Also remember that our scientific knowledge is almost certainly "wrong" or at least not the the complete picture. Sir Issac Newton's theories on motion were the best available science for centuries -- until Einstein came up with better theories of motion.
So it is certainly possible that later scientific discoveries will modify our understanding of the relationship between human CO2 emissions and climate. However to date the studies that refute the prevailing view are from researchers funded by corporations in the business of selling fossil fuels. So I think we should be at least equally sketical of their results of non fossil fuel funded research. |
I don't care who funded what when it comes to the details of a case. It is 100% irrelevant.
The arguments and their basis in evidence are all that matter. If you need to bring in who....you're not doing science.
Proper method...it's for everyone, all the time.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Mon May 08, 2017 2:54 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | I don't care who funded what when it comes to the details of a case. It is 100% irrelevant. |
Such a statement indicates either an ignorance of or willful blindness to history.
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