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yukon222
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Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 1893 | TRs | Pics
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yukon222
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 Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:10 pm |
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| Malachai Constant wrote: |  Hikes End |
| BarbE wrote: |  a mountain |
Sweet pictures!! It is always a joy to watch the mountains change as the sunlight slowly fades from the sky.
Re: Wilderness Regs - from the Mt Baker Snoqulamie National Forest webpage - Maximum party-size
A limit of 12 for a group, in any combination of people and pack and saddle animals, is the rule for wilderness areas. Groups exceeding 12 must divide into physically and logistically separate parties and maintain a minimum distance of one mile separation as measured on a map.
I don't see how the local Ranger office can say dogs count towards the limit when this webpage clearly states "pack and saddle animals". Certainly, no one could logically argue dogs are pack or saddle animals. Obviously, they are referring to horses, goats, llamas, mules...
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/mbs/recreation/wilderness-regulations.shtml
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Dayhike Mike
Bad MFKer
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Posts: 10958 | TRs | Pics
Location: Going to Tukwila |
| Pütz-in-Boots wrote: | | Doesn't matter. The regs apply to day trips and overnights. |
How about trips that are longer than 7 days, and start on Tuesdays? Those too? 
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke
"Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment." -Solomon Short
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke
"Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment." -Solomon Short
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Tom
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Joined: 15 Dec 2001
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Tom
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Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:13 pm |
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I did note the FS website links to wilderness.net and states the following:
| Quote: | | The links below will take you to the Wilderness.net —a Web site jointly managed by the University of Montana and the four federal agencies that manage wilderness. |
Not necessarily the FS but jointly managed by the feds so seems official to me. Here is what it has to say about maximum group size in the Alpine Lake Wilderness:
| Quote: | | MAXIMUM GROUP SIZE : 12 HEARTBEATS
- MAXIMUM GROUP SIZE IS 12 PERSONS AND/OR STOCK. |
I suppose you could still read it as only person and stock heartbeats count.
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gone
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Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 1051 | TRs | Pics
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gone
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Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:21 pm |
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Guess I better get my piece in before the thread is led too far adrift on a topic about which I will only add: it's hard to imagine it being "coordination" for a leader-less acronym to publish a weekly destination that any stranger may read and subsequently visit. If it were, then WTA's mag and numerous newspapers would be guilty of, well, whatever it is that's being suggested here. Fines for everyone! 
Anyhow, it was so good to be back on the trail after 4-5 weeks of sitting on my hands waiting for my feet to heal! 
The way was steep-steep, but mercifully short, and with blueberries galore above Lillian. After an afternoon change of plans, I was surprisingly first to the parking area (though by just a couple minutes), third to the lake and ridge above the lake (thanks to BarbE for the pointer re getting around the lake-side cliffs), and after turning around there, snacking and descending, first back to the cars and to the Pour House (save for AD who was warming the joint up).
I might have made the summit, but was worried that the Advil might be masking something that would surprise me unexpectedly if I continued. No worries, though, as the only pain this morning was in my legs, which have apparently atrophied a bit since hiking Silver last month.
 Lillian Fireweed Blueberries in Red Grass to Stuart Lillian to Rainier 
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yukon222
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yukon222
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Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:22 pm |
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Nice link, Tom. That Wilderness.net has some nice maps too.
The "dog" bullet points are completely separate from the "stock" bullet points so that by itself would imply they are different entities.
The "stock" bullet point describes restrictions on grazing, hitching and tethering the pack or saddle animals. Seems clear dogs are NOT considered stock by this website and the 4 Federal agencies that jointly manage the website.
So after reading thru all of this information, I'm still of the firm opinion that 12 humans/horses/mules/goats/llamas is the group size limit.
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Dayhike Mike
Bad MFKer
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Posts: 10958 | TRs | Pics
Location: Going to Tukwila |
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke
"Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment." -Solomon Short
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Go Jo
of the lykkens
Joined: 08 Jun 2003
Posts: 2248 | TRs | Pics
Location: Around The Bend |
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Go Jo
of the lykkens
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Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:26 pm |
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| ewb wrote: | | it's hard to imagine it being "coordination" for a leader-less acronym to publish a weekly destination that any stranger may read and subsequently visit. If it were, then WTA's mag and numerous newspapers would be guilty of, well, whatever it is that's being suggested here. Fines for everyone! |
Except me, who was stuck home with food allergies and a gimp ankle. I wish I had been out to enjoy such a beautiful evening in a fantastic area. So much to explore and see, I'll be enjoying your pics for days to come. Thanks for your thoughtful response to the group size issue and welcome back to the trail (hope your foot wasn't too vocal today about it's use)! ~Jo
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Go Jo
of the lykkens
Joined: 08 Jun 2003
Posts: 2248 | TRs | Pics
Location: Around The Bend |
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Go Jo
of the lykkens
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Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:51 pm |
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Saw a great spot for further discussion of the group size topic, organizations, regulations and links: thread here 
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Go Jo
of the lykkens
Joined: 08 Jun 2003
Posts: 2248 | TRs | Pics
Location: Around The Bend |
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Go Jo
of the lykkens
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Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:54 pm |
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| Pütz-in-Boots wrote: | And I believe in discussing the topic in he TR in which it happened.  |
Sorry I thought after expressing yourself fully here that you had started an additional thread to continue the discussion. You are of course free to respond after each set of photos posted, I was only partly sassing and partly assisting your new venue. I should know better on this forum by now, consider me properly chastised.
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Tom
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Tom
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Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:59 pm |
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| GeoTom wrote: |  Stout |
Hey, that almost looks like livestock. You sure it's not a cow dressed up as a dog?
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Malachai Constant
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Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
I think I prefer CC where there is a rule against spray in TR's 
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Go Jo
of the lykkens
Joined: 08 Jun 2003
Posts: 2248 | TRs | Pics
Location: Around The Bend |
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Go Jo
of the lykkens
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Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:23 pm |
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I should mention that despite all of the sarcasm and joking mixed into the discussion that the true hope is to find a way to both respect party size (and the fabulous wilderness it protects) and the leaderless tradition of joining up with some unknown assortment of fellow hikers on a Thursday evening. It is a conundrum and one that bears looking into more deeply. Your concerns do not fall on deaf ears and while the Pre-NAB separation and TNAB Lite alternate destinations were great ideas for reducing the numbers, 'we' will continue to look for ways to prevent even the question of rule violation in the future. ~Jo
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Magellan
Brutally Handsome
Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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Magellan
Brutally Handsome
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Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:57 pm |
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Man I look good! You totally can't even tell I'm sucking my gut in and holding my breath.
It was kind of a quiet group tonight. Perhaps we all felt the passing of summer. It was warm, but the sun dipped below the horizon at a very early hour.
Magellan took as many as four travelers on a scenic tour of a beautiful grassy hillside. It is never too early to go the wrong direction I say.
 Stephen dives into Lillian  Box Ridge and Mazzy  CMurph  Rampart Lakes  HiBox  Team Stout  Silhouettes
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zeusdaddy
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Joined: 17 Oct 2008
Posts: 20 | TRs | Pics
Location: North Bend, Washington |
It was nice to make it to the top of the ridge this year... much better views than the pea-soup fog in the tarns that we saw last year.
Thanks to Alti-Babe and BarbE for the help guiding the TLABs on the rocks!
 It's rocky up here...  Dungeon Peak (I think)  Ridgeline north of Lake Lillian  Following the trail around Lake Lillian  Looking up towards Rampart Ridge  MC showing the ultimate in hiking style  Jasper....  Man at work  FIRE!  Stewart behind a bunch of 'boxes'  Mt Stewart  Rampart Lakes  Mazzy loves to stand on the edge  Ahhhh.... sunsets  I should actually explore down there someday  Awesome country up here
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More Cowbell
Warrior Princess
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 5657 | TRs | Pics
Location: Alive on Earth |
Medium Rare
“If you want to forget all your other troubles, wear too tight shoes.” - Unknown
“If you want to forget all your other troubles, wear too tight shoes.” - Unknown
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Also, love the pics that people are posting. Looks like you had some nice conditions up there yesterday! 
