Forum Index > Gear Talk > Re:Winter bags "Does quality down break down?"
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like2thruhike
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PostMon Oct 12, 2009 11:35 am 
Last Saturday night I spent a chilly one perched right below Seven Fingered Jack (7,500 ft)and didn't sleep (much). This experiance posed several questions from my past experiances about how to weather cold nights while remaining toasty warm deep inside a very light weight yet well made down bag. Saturday night I ignored Ray Jardines words of wisdom by NOT camping low before climbing high.I was though,going lite smile.gif ! First things first,I went to bed with all of my packed clothes on in a regular size Marmot Helium bag.This bag has a 15 degree rating and "usually" keeps me toasty warm.But that night,cold spots,chilled toes and the lack of depth had me up just about every third hour. My mind was filled with solutions to the issues at hand yet after reading what a major down bag manufacturer said on their website;body oils break down the down yet they failed to mention if this is a perminant condition. This bag was taken on my 3,000 mile CDT hike and I'm wondering if the bag sustained perminant down damage due heavy duty use. Before I go out and drop a few hundred on another bag,I'm going to properly wash,dry and then retest while taking down booties,mittens and a warmer hat as a back-up. I did speak with a Lake Wenache local who told me last Saturday the temperature at 1,800 feet was 18 degrees.I didn't though,have a thermometer at 7,500."It was the coldest night I've spent in Washington possibly ever..."

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DIYSteve
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PostMon Oct 12, 2009 12:00 pm 
If you used the bag for a 3,000 mile hike and didn't wash it, then cold spots are no surprise. Body oils can foul down and de-loft the bag, but the problem can be remedied by washing with good down soap followed by a thorough drying. Body oil fouling can be somewhat prevented by wearing at least a thin base layer from neck to toe. Sleeping in the raw when temps allow is nice, but I no longer do it solely because of this issue. In cold weather, fouling by body oil and condensation (a big issue in cold weather, of course) can be prevented by using a vapor barrier liner. And, of course, store the bag by hanging or in a big ass storage bag, stuffing the bag only when necessary. You probably already knew this. There's lots of stuff on the Interwebs about washing a sleeping bag. I use FF down soap and a bath tub. Others use a front loading commercial washington machine. Good luck. With some good down soap and good washing & drying technique, you'll likely be able to revive the loft to practically like new condition.

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skimanjohn
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PostMon Oct 12, 2009 12:37 pm 
I have a 30 year old Camp 7 North col down bag that is almost as good as the day i bought it.I wash it pretty much every year,depending how much i use it.I would not think of using a bag,down or synthetic,on a 3000 mkile walk without giving it a good washing.Just like any gear cleaning is a big part of maintinence and making it last.Dont know about you but my body leaves quite a mess behind,oil,dirt and odor.Also the Helium,though rated at 15 degrees,would not be my choice as a winter bag.Last thought is that i only sleep as warm as the food i take in before bed time.The warmest bag wont keep me that way if i dont stoke up the furnace be retireing for the night.

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Tom
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PostMon Oct 12, 2009 12:43 pm 
My two cents. If the forecast I saw was correct it was cold this weekend, particularly at 7500'. Your bag is fine but it's time for a wash. Head to a laundrommat. Bring a few tennis balls. Don't sweat it. Washing a bag is fun!

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The Bubbly Hiker
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PostMon Oct 12, 2009 12:53 pm 
Feathered Friends can warsh yer bag fer $15. So I've heard. Almost covers the cost of materials and laundry coins...??? I'm gonna try them out and see if they are on the up and up about down. It's a lofty goal to keep your down up. If I remember I'll report back. Probably I'll forget because I'll leave it at the shop until next summer when I realize my feathers are not in the usual nest.

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iron
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PostMon Oct 12, 2009 4:44 pm 
also, note that the helium 15 degree rating is survival temperature, not comfort. so, from that standpoint, it worked. smile.gif http://marmot.com/fall_2009/equipment/sleeping_bags/ultralight/helium_reg/info/details comfort rating is listed at 27 degrees. i learned this the hard way as well with the marmot hydrogen bag that i thought was 30 degrees. at the time i bought, i was under the impression that marmot rated by comfort. nope.

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chiwakum
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PostMon Oct 12, 2009 9:16 pm 
iron wrote:
also, note that the helium 15 degree rating is survival temperature, not comfort. so, from that standpoint, it worked. smile.gif http://marmot.com/fall_2009/equipment/sleeping_bags/ultralight/helium_reg/info/details comfort rating is listed at 27 degrees. i learned this the hard way as well with the marmot hydrogen bag that i thought was 30 degrees. at the time i bought, i was under the impression that marmot rated by comfort. nope.
A minor nit. For the helium bag, 15 is not the "survival" temperature. Marmot states that the "lower limit" temp for the helium is 16.3 deg F. they define the "lower limit" (as per EN testing) as the lowest temperature at which a "standard" male could have comfortable nights sleep. The survival temp is well below 15 deg F. http://marmot.com/fall_2009/equipment/sleeping_bags/ultralight/helium_reg/info/certified

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iron
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PostMon Oct 12, 2009 9:22 pm 
chiwakum wrote:
iron wrote:
also, note that the helium 15 degree rating is survival temperature, not comfort. so, from that standpoint, it worked. smile.gif http://marmot.com/fall_2009/equipment/sleeping_bags/ultralight/helium_reg/info/details comfort rating is listed at 27 degrees. i learned this the hard way as well with the marmot hydrogen bag that i thought was 30 degrees. at the time i bought, i was under the impression that marmot rated by comfort. nope.
A minor nit. For the helium bag, 15 is not the "survival" temperature. Marmot states that the "lower limit" temp for the helium is 16.3 deg F. they define the "lower limit" (as per EN testing) as the lowest temperature at which a "standard" male could have comfortable nights sleep. The survival temp is well below 15 deg F. http://marmot.com/fall_2009/equipment/sleeping_bags/ultralight/helium_reg/info/certified
good catch. regardless, it sucks to be cold all night campfire.gif

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grannyhiker
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PostMon Oct 12, 2009 10:10 pm 
I was out this past week in a 20* Western Mountaineering bag, plus all the rest of the clothing I had with me. For the first half of each night, I FROZE. After that, I warmed up enough to be comfortable, almost too warm, but I shivered for 3-4 hours before achieving that blissful state. It didn't help that one's bladder contracts when one is cold, making my normally "overactive bladder" due to age even more overactive. In other words, I had to make several exits during the "getting warm" stage, definitely retarding the process! The big problem was my pad. A Thermarest NeoAir plus a 1/8" closed cell foam pad on top just didn't cut it, even when the temp was still around 32*. I'd recommend a 3/8" or 1/2" closed cell foam pad with the NeoAir (which, of course, does away with any weight savings over a POE or BA insulated air pad). I'm going to ditch the NeoAir, forget about the 8 oz. weight savings and go back to my POE insulated air pad, which is far more comfortable (at any temperature) and has no problems with cold at 20*. A second problem is that I should have timed my trip to be in camp with the tent set up and my water filtered long before sunset, so I could change to my warmest clothing (which I didn't need while hiking), like an expedition weight base layer, while it was still relatively warm (at least above freezing). As soon as the sun went down, which in both camp places was about 4 pm, the thermometer immediately dived well below freezing and kept going. Since local sunset was about when I stopped, I lost quite a bit of the heat I had generated from hiking before I could get into all my warm clothing.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view.--E.Abbey
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like2thruhike
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PostMon Oct 12, 2009 11:13 pm 
Thanks for the down info:)
Actually I have washed it several times after the CDT. The whole comfort rating thing blows my mind."It's like gear weight vs actual packed weight". It's ironic that this bag is comfortable for 3 seasons."Usually I just wear more clothes to bed rounding out the double-use ethic that goes with light weight backpacking and I survive the night". The cost of weight vs comfort has me turning back to comfort,at least for winter months. With this knowledge,I will checkout -15/0 degree bags soon.Real soon.Any suggestions or used bags??? And 15 bucks for a wash?I'll have to check that out since F.F. is less than a mile from my place. Thanks for the down info,I appreciate it!

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salish
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PostTue Oct 13, 2009 12:08 am 
I spent Saturday night near the top of Clemen Mountain, near Naches. It got down into the early 20's and I was just fine in my 35 year old Eddie Bauer down bag. I've never been cold in it and it's never let me down after all these years. It was just about the best you could buy back then.

My short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my short-term memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
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huron
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PostTue Oct 13, 2009 7:01 am 
There's a trick you can use to get more warmth out of your bag. This only works if it is down and has continuous horizontal baffles. The idea is to get more insulation on the top side. Get out of the bag, zip it up and insert your arm all the way in down to the feet. Turn the bag so that the bottom center is across the top of your arm. Then, shake and pull the down toward the top of your bag. You will need to sleep on your back for this to work. Another trick is rather than wearing your jacket, put it over you inside the bag like a quilt or wear it backwards zipper undone. Again, idea is to get more insulation on top of you rather than compressed underneath you.

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joker
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PostTue Oct 13, 2009 9:10 am 
Bag temp ratings are of course only a guide - I do fine pushing a bag's limits, whereas my wife needs plenty of buffer. I've also noticed that some tent mates don't use their mummy hood and then complain of being too cold. Cinch that hood up tight! I recall using my -20F bag at close to the bag's temp rating, and having the hood cinched so that pretty much just my mouth and nose were exposed. This past Saturday, at about 5,500 near Yellow Aster Butte, I had a great night's sleep in my Marmot Helium (15F bag). I'd recently washed it in my home front loading machine set to one notch gentler than the normal setting, dried in the home dryer set to low with a light clean sneaker in with the bag, and frequent removals to bust up down clumps for good measure as the bag got toward dry. This bag is about as bulky a down item as I'd want to wash in these machines. It definitely had more loft than before the lofting - the difference was clear. I wore two thin layers of clothing on top and bottom, my down booties, a light balaclava and a polartech 200 weight hat, and had the mummy hood moderately cinched. It took a few minutes to warm the bag up, but otherwise no trouble 'til morning when I pulled in the water filter (pumped dry-ish the afternoon before) and isopro fuel canister, which cooled me back off for a short until I warmed them up. My wife was in an old -20F bag which I think needs a washing, and she did fine in that - I would have been sweating. Magnum's notion is interesting. Nunatak (and I htink others) makes "bags" that take this to the extreme - no floor to the bag except in the footbox area. So no down under you. These will supposedly work fine for side sleeping as well. You add a down balaclava for the "hood," and can layer on mucho clothing since the bag will expand to accomodate it, rather than simply reducing the loft and hence insulation of your down jacket. Drafts (and some degree of wind/spray protection for tarp campers) can be provided by an UL bivy sack. Seems like an interesting concept in terms of UL philosophies of "multiple use" and putting the weight only where you need it.

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DIYSteve
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PostTue Oct 13, 2009 10:20 am 
joker wrote:
. . . my home front loading machine. . . .
Yuppie Alert! hockeygrin.gif

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DIYSteve
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PostTue Oct 13, 2009 10:37 am 
joker wrote:
Magnum's notion is interesting. Nunatak (and I htink [sic] others) makes "bags" that take this to the extreme - no floor to the bag except in the footbox area. So no down under you. These will supposedly work fine for side sleeping as well.
I've been following the mummy vs. sleeping quilt (e.g., Nunatak) design dialogue. As one of my winter sewing projects, I'm currently designing a synthetic sleeping quilt for wet May thru early September use. Over the past several years, for use May thru September, I've used a FF Great Auk, a hybrid system, something between a quilt and a mummy bag, that I've heavily modified. FF no longer makes the model. It is somewhat like the Big Agnes bags, i.e., the bottom has a pad sleeve but no insulation. I ordered it with eVent so I can bivi in it if there's no or very little precip. I can "mummy up" in my Great Auk only if I sleep on my back. If I side sleep, then my face is buried in the side of the mummy hood and I leak warmth. (See Joker's comments above about people who don't mummy with their mummy bags and then complain about getting cold.) Magnum's recommendation to shift the down to the top works great for back sleepers and okay if you turn your inside the bag (but turning obviates the ability to mummy up, resulting in heat loss). When the sleeping quilt idea hit the Internets, it benefitted from a big swell of support for a wide range of temps, but, after a several years of use the tide has recently been turning in favor of mummies for temps below 20F. A quilt will never seal in body heat like a mummy bag this is fully mummied up. One thing is certain -- quilts work better for back sleepers than side sleepers. BTW, the Nunatak stuff is very well made. He's a good guy, a former FF employee.

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