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RayD
the griz ate my pass



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the griz ate my pass
PostTue Dec 15, 2009 6:03 pm 
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Quote:
What's wrong with this picture?

umm...lawyers don't wear shoes?
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Dec 15, 2009 7:08 pm 
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There there would not be any lawyers in the phone book or any place else for that matter if clients did not hire them huh.gif

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Slugman
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It’s a Slugfest!
PostTue Dec 15, 2009 8:25 pm 
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This phony argument against lawyers is almost 300 years old. What a load of garbage. The rule of law is 100% responsible for our prosperity.

These environmental lawsuits have made many, many criminals stop ripping off every American and poisoning our water and air. Privatize the profits, socialize the costs, that's the mantra of the corporate world.

Who is it that wants there to be no oversight, no regulation, no recourse? The criminal, the bully, the thief. The Constitutional rights of every American, every single right, is dependent upon the right to "petition the government for a redress of grievances." The people trying to take away that right are trying to re-institute slavery. Slavery to the corporation.

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Ski
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PostWed Dec 16, 2009 2:10 am 
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Back to the original topic....

It's fairly apparent from doing a bit of poking around that Karen Budd-Falen's claims of rampant abuse of the EAJA are credible.


"The issue of abuse of the EAJA by well-heeled environmental organizations using taxpayer dollars to fund lawsuits against the government was the subject of a November 3 letter from the Western Congressional Caucus to U.S. Attorney Eric Holder. Twenty-three Representatives and Senators expressed concern that “organizations with a narrowly focused political agenda regarding the management of public lands in the west are abusing the Congressional intent of the EAJA.”



"In total, $4,716,264,730.00 (that is billion with a “b”) in total payments were paid in taxpayer dollars from the Judgment Fund from 2003 through July 2007 for attorney fees and costs in cases against the federal government."




..."Congress enacted the EAJA to provide greater access to the courts for only those parties that lack the financial means to gain access on their own."

"Most recently, in 'Texas Food Industry Ass'n. v. United States Department of Agriculture, the Fifth Circuit held that a trade association which is comprised of multi-billion dollar corporations, but which itself possess a net worth of $3.3 million, constitutes an eligible party under the EAJA and, thus, may collect attorney's fees under the EAJA."


Sluggo, maybe it's okay with you that billions of tax dollars are being funneled directly into the pockets of attorneys and large corporations who have figured out how to exploit the law for financial gain.
Maybe it's even okay that those dollars paid by NFS in these cases might have otherwise gone to fund trail maintenance on public lands.

Respectfully, I tend to disagree.

The abuse of the law has created what treeswarper correctly calls a de facto Environmental Industry.
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Toonces
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PostWed Dec 16, 2009 2:43 am 
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Ski makes a good point... it's exactly like those prosecutors and law enforcement officers who have figured out how to exploit criminal law for financial gain.    agree.gif

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treeswarper
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PostWed Dec 16, 2009 6:22 am 
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Slugman wrote:
This phony argument against lawyers is almost 300 years old. What a load of garbage. The rule of law is 100% responsible for our prosperity.

These environmental lawsuits have made many, many criminals stop ripping off every American and poisoning our water and air. Privatize the profits, socialize the costs, that's the mantra of the corporate world.

Who is it that wants there to be no oversight, no regulation, no recourse? The criminal, the bully, the thief. The Constitutional rights of every American, every single right, is dependent upon the right to "petition the government for a redress of grievances." The people trying to take away that right are trying to re-institute slavery. Slavery to the corporation.

Well, if you don't mind a simple project, like rerouting a trail or road, or moving a culvert, taking years to complete, your way of thinking is OK.  But I find it hard to call the timber buyers around here corporations.  We're not talking a free for all, we're talking about dollars going to lawyers/enviros who have the time and energy to put every document under a microscope.  Their business is to do so and find an error then go to court, settle and make money.   They are abusers of the system.  Every system has them.  I'd put them right up with your criminal bully thief category.

They're just one part of why improvements are not maintained in our forests.

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Ski
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PostWed Dec 16, 2009 4:22 pm 
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Merry Christmas.
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Slugman
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PostWed Dec 23, 2009 12:18 pm 
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It is hardly "bullying" to make the government follow the laws they make. And corporate lawyers make a million dollars for every one made by an environmental lawyer. And to make matters worse, the corporate lawyers are making the world a worse place, as opposed to the environmental lawyers who are making it a better place. Improvements are not being made in our forests because of cheapskates and liars who brainwash Americans into thinking that tax cuts are always a good idea, even when they eviscerate programs we need. I certainly would rather have properly-maintained national forests and parks than see rich people and giant corproations get tax breaks to move jobs to foreign countries. But if you want to see all American jobs go to China, while our country falls apart, well that says a lot about you, doesn't it? We are all reaping what you and yours have sown, and it ain't pretty. And then we have to listen to you blame us for your actions and their consequences. Outrageous.

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treeswarper
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PostWed Dec 23, 2009 5:38 pm 
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Slugman wrote:
It is hardly "bullying" to make the government follow the laws they make. And corporate lawyers make a million dollars for every one made by an environmental lawyer. And to make matters worse, the corporate lawyers are making the world a worse place, as opposed to the environmental lawyers who are making it a better place. Improvements are not being made in our forests because of cheapskates and liars who brainwash Americans into thinking that tax cuts are always a good idea, even when they eviscerate programs we need. I certainly would rather have properly-maintained national forests and parks than see rich people and giant corproations get tax breaks to move jobs to foreign countries. But if you want to see all American jobs go to China, while our country falls apart, well that says a lot about you, doesn't it? We are all reaping what you and yours have sown, and it ain't pretty. And then we have to listen to you blame us for your actions and their consequences. Outrageous.

That is a matter of opinion.  I would disagree having seen the local "betterments".

Merry Christmas back at ya!

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MtnGoat
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PostWed Dec 23, 2009 9:41 pm 
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claiming enviro lawyers simply make the world a better place is so much bunkum. they are at best running 50/50, like anyone else.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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trestle
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PostThu Dec 24, 2009 7:43 am 
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Slugman wrote:
the environmental lawyers who are making it a better place

Have you ever heard of futurewise.org and the Growth Management Act? Their "environmental lawyers" are re-zoning most of rural Washington so that no one can live on anything smaller than a 5-acre piece, regardless of how long they have owned the land or their long-term plans for family/financial security. Urban density models simply do not work in rural counties and yet the "environmental lawyers" of futurewise are shoving them down our throats anyway. And don't pretend to hide behind the government and the GMA; no one is standing up to futurewise. Their lawyers are dictating the change, not a government agency. Every govt. rep (including the lawyer for the planning dept. of my county) I've spoken with says there is simply no way to challenge a group that powerful. I wonder where their funding comes from . . . . . . . . . time for some research.
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kbatku
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PostThu Dec 24, 2009 10:52 am 
funny thing about that
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I live in Yakima County, which adopted a similar rule years ago. The outshot of that is that the land still gets developed, just that the development takes up more area (!!!). And there is nothing "rural" or natural about the development, it still has houses and lawns and outbuildings - just spread out over a wider area.
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NikonHiker
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PostThu Dec 24, 2009 3:51 pm 
Re: funny thing about that
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kbatku wrote:
I live in Yakima County, which adopted a similar rule years ago. The outshot of that is that the land still gets developed, just that the development takes up more area (!!!). And there is nothing "rural" or natural about the development, it still has houses and lawns and outbuildings - just spread out over a wider area.

It also results in inflated real estate prices...
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treeswarper
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PostFri Dec 25, 2009 7:33 am 
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I believe it is in the adopting phase here.  Our county planners are rather slow, thank goodness.

But you Yakimanians also have water issues, no?

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kbatku
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PostFri Dec 25, 2009 12:40 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
Yakimanians also have water issues, no?

The aquifers are pretty good here. It's the haggling over river water that gets extreme. Kittitas County has a big well issue, though it's more the principle of the thing than actually running out of water.

All the five acre tracts make the countryside  look chopped up and cluttered - it didn't work out as intended.
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