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Ski
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Ski
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 Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:05 pm |
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| catsp wrote: | | I agree that abusive litigation exists. That the CEOs of many organizations, including various green groups, are too highly compensated. That not everyone is in it for the good of the planet. Maybe even that the various green groups and similar orgs shouldn't be entitled to even the $3.6 million under the EAJA, etc. |
I'm confused. If you agree that what you've listed are problems, why all the noise?
Because you managed to find ONE article out of all of those cited, written by somebody that you clearly already have a bias against, contains errors in accounting?
So.... all the other articles/papers/reports cited are also "wildly misleading" as well?
Wait... it's all "fake news", right?
I'm starting to remember why I had you guys on ignore a while back. Guess it's time to click that button again.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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altasnob
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altasnob
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Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:11 pm |
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Tom
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Joined: 15 Dec 2001
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Tom
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Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:42 pm |
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| catsp wrote: | | Is it $4.7 billion ("billion with a "b""! as so many articles put it at the time), or is it several million? I think such things matter when someone is trying to gin up outrage. |
Thanks for digging up the Knudsen article. Quick glance indicates $31.6 million over a decade. Another source indicates "Knudson found that during the 1990s, 434 environmental cases were brought against the federal government and the government paid out more than $35.1 million in attorney fees." On an annualized basis that's ~$3 million per year.
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Malachai Constant
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Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Hate to say it but that is chump change we always tell clients not expect a minimum of a million for attorney fees for a patent suit and initial appeal.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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altasnob
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altasnob
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Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:11 pm |
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| catsp wrote: | | FTR, I don't believe that the ability to recover attorney's fees under the EAJA in suits against the government should extend to orgs like the various green orgs often mentioned, or the rancher type orgs that I understand have also sought fees under the EAJA. |
If you limited attorney fee recover in the EAJA so that only small claimants can collect, you would probably still see environmental suits brought by the big, national/international environmental groups because they are well funded and only derive a small amount of their revenue from judgments in court. But you would decrease the claims from smaller regional environmental groups who make up the majority of environmental litigation using the EAJA. Environmental cases are complex. This is not trying to appeal your social security check. Environmental suits involve expert witness testimony and battles of scientific evidence. The cost to bring these cases is high. Why would anyone sue if they had to foot the entire bill, even if the government is completely outside the law on a particular issue?
A person gets attorney fees if they prevail on a Public Records Act case under Washington law. Doesn't matter what that person's income is. Bill Gates could sue and collect money. The point of this is to encourage citizens and groups to hold the government accountable under the laws. I don't see how this is a bad things.
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Randito
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Randito
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Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:41 pm |
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The premise of this thread more nonsense from the "Government is the problem" line of thinking. Making the government pay the legal fees of independent "watchdog" groups when they prove that a government agency didn't follow the law seems like a far more effective scheme for motivating government agencies to follow the law than letting agencies "police themselves" or depending on the GAO.
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Tom
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Tom
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Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:57 pm |
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OK, so where does the $4.7 billion come from? Does it include damages for which the government was found liable? If so, that seems a good return on investment for $35.1 million invested. I doubt that $4.7 billion number is real, but if it is, shouldn't we be more upset by $4.7 billion of wrongdoing?
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Sculpin
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Sculpin
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Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:39 am |
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| Tom wrote: | | On an annualized basis that's ~$3 million per year. |
Well this claim went down like a house of cards. And like Randito said, how is this program not a good thing?
We are supposed to be segueing out of upisdownism right about now, this is a good place to start. 
My wife and I have been contributing members of the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance for decades. Their primary work is in the courtroom, and by any measure, they have been extremely effective. And now, by the craziest stroke of fate, due to changing demographics they even represent the views of the majority of local citizens in at least two rural southeastern Utah counties! Which is doubly ironic, since "local control" has always been the mantra of the resource extractors and ATV riders.
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
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Malachai Constant
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Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
When we were at Bears Ears one of them a vet gave us a ride over the last mile or so to Moon House. Great guy gave us a lot of good info on the area. Fun fact the test holes were almost all dusters.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Brian R
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Brian R
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Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:14 pm |
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| Randito wrote: | | The premise of this thread more nonsense from the "Government is the problem" line of thinking. Making the government pay the legal fees of independent "watchdog" groups when they prove that a government agency didn't follow the law seems like a far more effective scheme for motivating government agencies to follow the law than letting agencies "police themselves" or depending on the GAO. |
If government employees were ever held responsible for their actions, inaction, incompetence, mismanagement, or, occasionally, downright fraud, your premise might be of value. But they're never the ones who pay. We are. And apparently the sky is the limit. This is the difference between suing a private-sector violator and a public one. The former sometimes learns from their pain; the latter just shrugs it off.
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Randito
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Randito
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Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:25 am |
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| Brian R wrote: | | Randito wrote: | | The premise of this thread more nonsense from the "Government is the problem" line of thinking. Making the government pay the legal fees of independent "watchdog" groups when they prove that a government agency didn't follow the law seems like a far more effective scheme for motivating government agencies to follow the law than letting agencies "police themselves" or depending on the GAO. |
If government employees were ever held responsible for their actions, inaction, incompetence, mismanagement, or, occasionally, downright fraud, your premise might be of value. But they're never the ones who pay. We are. And apparently the sky is the limit. This is the difference between suing a private-sector violator and a public one. The former sometimes learns from their pain; the latter just shrugs it off. |
More "government is the problem" fiction [removed by moderator] without presenting any evidence.
One example to the the contrary
https://www.justice.gov/usao-edva/pr/former-dod-employee-pleads-guilty-14-million-fraud
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Tom
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Tom
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Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:28 am |
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C'mon Randy, no need for personal attacks.
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Randito
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Randito
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Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:32 am |
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Liars need to held accountable.
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Tom
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Tom
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Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:40 am |
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Did you not agree to the posting rules?
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Randito
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Randito
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Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:08 am |
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| Tom wrote: | | Did you not agree to the posting rules? |
How is accurately describing another's post a violation of posting rules? What I said attacks his post, not him.
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