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treeswarper
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PostWed Jun 02, 2010 8:36 pm 
Grannyhiker is right on. Lodgepole pine is not a long lived tree. Think of it as a drier climate alder. It is the first species to come back after a fire, and is dependent on fire. The cones are serotinous, they need heat to open. Lodgepole pine is mature around age 80. Now, think back to when fire suppression started. Like 80 years or so ago? The tree weakens, the beetles zero in and you have dead trees that will burn up soon and The Cycle of Life begins all over again. The snags do not last very long and will blow over, this creates a mess for humans and animals to get through. Then it'll burn even hotter. There used to be a market for dead lodgepole--the larger than 8 inches diameter. They used it for log houses. The supply dried up because a lot of it was on National Forest. The beetle will hit whether or not the climate is changing. The lodgepole is of age. All that can be done is to try to clear it out in areas that folks want protected. And hope no big fire gets going. I've been on a few fires where it burned and the only thing that stopped it was a cloudburst. Not a four D-8 blade wide dozer line, and certainly not a hand line. It spots, it goes up. We did a lot of running. The Tri pod fire was in a lodgepole area. Toats Coulee is, and part of it was clearcut around 1990 when it started to die. Bonaparte Mountain had a few lodgepole sales on it. Now? If logging it were allowed, the market is limited. The mills that took the Okanogan wood are closed. Montana has few mills. Colorado has one mill. I imagine it'll burn up. Then it'll grow back.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper
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PostWed Jun 02, 2010 8:45 pm 
BigBear wrote:
40 degrees below? Since when has it ever been that cold during the winter here in the last 100 years?
1968-69. -40 was recorded at the Winthrop fish hatchery and then the thermometer broke. Calves had their ears frozen off. Many of the apple orchards in the Methow froze up and were pulled out. Wenatchee only had -24 at that time. My sister got frostbitten toes. Our neighbor's pipes froze so they came to our house. My mom and dad got up and started their cars every few hours as we had no garage. The winter of 1983? saw -27 in Twisp. Which meant it was probably colder in the cold spots of the Methow. We were entertained at that time by watching the coasties trying to start their cars. It was around Christmas time. If you went up to ski at the Loup, the temperature was a balmy -10. That's the last of the eastside cold winters that I experienced. I think there was something about 1948 too. Everything happened in 1948 according to the old timers.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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BeyondLost
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PostWed Jun 02, 2010 8:58 pm 
The lowest temperature in Washington, -48°, was recorded on December 30, 1968 at Mazama and Winthrop. In the 11 years I've lived NW of Mazama I've seen -25 several times in the early years but never below -11 the past 6 or 7 years.

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Allison
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PostWed Jun 02, 2010 9:00 pm 
It absolutely KILLS me when you people call us Coasties! You know Seattle's on Puget Sound, not on the big ocean, right? clown.gif

www.allisonoutside.com follow me on Twitter! @AllisonLWoods
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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Jun 02, 2010 9:17 pm 
Coldest I have been in WA was -20F at Haney Meadows a couple times.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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HitTheTrail
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PostWed Jun 02, 2010 9:24 pm 
AllisonW wrote:
It absolutely KILLS me when you people call us Coasties! You know Seattle's on Puget Sound, not on the big ocean, right? clown.gif
Aah, that's nothing. Some people go so far as to say Wenatchee is in eastern washington.

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Chief Joseph
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PostThu Jun 03, 2010 1:27 am 
Sounds to me like the settlers and native people had it figured out, burn the lodgepole or use it to build cabins, ship masts,ect. I could use a log cabin. "Trees, you cut them down they grow back, duh!" I like that saying as to how it applies to this topic. So the beetles eat them and others grow back in their place. Let nature take it's course, but man can help, not hinder as we do in many cases. Not sure if global warming could be a factor, {I am not a big fan of GW}, but maybe man through over-protection of certain trees has in essence created the perfect habitat to allow these beetles to flourish? I don't like the idea of spraying to combat beetles and other insects, always there is a negative side effect to man made fixes. Like the saying, "the cure is worse than the disease". If spraying has a negative affect upon bees and other forms of life then I would think that would be counter productive? I appreciate the info, I have learned a lot and hope to learn more. Thanks.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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treeswarper
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PostThu Jun 03, 2010 5:25 am 
AllisonW wrote:
It absolutely KILLS me when you people call us Coasties! You know Seattle's on Puget Sound, not on the big ocean, right? clown.gif
It is an Eastern Warshington tradition to call you coasties. Always has been. Also, the whole area from Tacoma to Everett is called, Seattle. I believe I am a coastie now. Maybe not.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Davidą
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PostThu Jun 03, 2010 6:05 am 
Climate Change makes a convenient bogeyman these days and I'm not advocating we do nothing, I just would like to temper the blame game. In 1904 there were 4 billion American Chestnut Trees in the southeast - 25% of all trees. However by the end of the 30's they were virtually wiped out. The cause was an Asian chestnut fungus brought over to the new world by man. This is a common theme, like weaver-finches, starlings and the various plagues of frogs & rabbits in Australia. Man introduces an invasive species and they devastate the native population. Here's the thing - take for example the Hawaiian Islands. This is a string of islands that sprouted right from the ocean floor - never was there contact with another land mass and yet they are bursting with plants & animals. Now the plants & animals that got there before man are 'good' native species and the ones introduced by man are 'evil' invasive species. The 'good' Hawaiian Finches (Honeycreepers) have been devastated by the introduction of mosquitoes and now they only live at high elevations that are too cold for those pests. Now to get back to the Mountain Pine Beetle the obvious proximate cause of their recent rampage is the lack of a really cold winter. It doesn't matter if this was a natural warming cycle or caused by man made global warming - it really doesn't. The reason I say that is that those Hawaiian mosquitoes are already starting to adapt to the colder high elevations climates. The Hawaiian Honeycreeper are adapting to man made habitats and becoming resistant to mosquito borne illnesses. My point is that a lot of people think that there is a constant equilibrium in nature when in reality it is always evolving. In the future both Lodgepole Pine and Mountain Pine Beetles will be virtually unknown and yet to our descendants that will be the new 'normal' that must be preserved. While 'man' certainly plays a role in accelerating natural selection, we can also use science to speed up the process of evolution. Thanks in a large part to mankind, the American Chestnut is making a comeback.

Warning! Posts may contain traces of sarcasm. Hiking Website: http://members.shaw.ca/karenanddavid/Index.htm
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509
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PostThu Jun 03, 2010 7:25 am 
BeyondLost wrote:
The lowest temperature in Washington, -48°, was recorded on December 30, 1968 at Mazama and Winthrop. In the 11 years I've lived NW of Mazama I've seen -25 several times in the early years but never below -11 the past 6 or 7 years.
It was minus 16.7 two years ago at Camas Meadows (3000 feet exactly and just south of Cashmere). It was so cold the dog walked in from the living room at 3:00 am and woke me up. One look and I could tell she wanted more wood thrown into the wood stove. Last winter it was minus 12.7 for the low. When we lived in Spokane and Coeur d'Alene in the late 70's and 80's we would hit minus 25 most winters and have extended periods below zero. Then during the 90's it really did warm up. I do not remember it being below ZERO in Wenatchee throughout that time. Mt. Pine Beetle outbreaks have been around for years. You can google some of the historical records from the 30's. Fun reading and provided lots of employment for young Foresters and Forestry students. Do forget the NPS spraying in Yosemite National Park in the 1960's and that political "blow-up. One difference currently is that "we have an epidemic of trees" on most national forests. That is a quote from a Forest entomologist. I did a comparison of timber volumes on the Wenatchee National Forest comparing 1915 to 1995. My estimate was that the Forest had seven times the bio-mass in trees in 1995 than in 1915. That many spindly, sick trees makes a perfect breeding ground for various bug and diseases. This is the reason the forest fires are larger and more dangerous forest fires today. The good news is that we are recycling the Forests at a fairly rapid clip through forest fires. The bad news is that fires are much hotter and they actually might be substantially changing the soil characteristics. I have not seen any studies on this but hopefully they are out there working on them. I do know several soil scientists that are concerned about this effect. Change happens, but most of us don't even notice!

Retired Forester....rambling round www.usbackroads.blogspot.com
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treeswarper
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PostThu Jun 03, 2010 7:48 am 
Now I'm curious to see what Bonaparte Mtn looks like. It has been 20 years. The cutting prescription was all dead and live lodgepole were to be cut. The Larch and Doug fir were left. I am betting it has greened up. There was a budworm outbreak on the Wenatchee forest in 1976. Salvage sales were put up. Budworm does not necessarily kill the trees. But successive outbreaks will. Overcrowding makes for weaker trees. Back to Lodgepole--Logging had started and the state had plans for more logging of lodgepole around the Loomis area. The beetle was in that area and working on the trees. How do I put this nicely? Some kind hearted individual started a campaign to Save The Old Growth Lodgepole (remember, 80 years, 8 inch diameter is considered mature) and got folks to donate enough money to "save" it. I wonder if that has burned yet? All trees species are not alike.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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PostThu Jun 03, 2010 9:03 am 
It would have burned during Tripod, but DNR and the fire teams put a lot of resources to keep the Loomis Forest from burning. It did get in around the edge. I drove the Toats Coulee-Meadows area loop before Tripod and am going to drive it this summer to see the changes. Be interesting to see how the country has changed.

Retired Forester....rambling round www.usbackroads.blogspot.com
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joker
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PostThu Jun 03, 2010 9:32 am 
Good input on forest management - this all makes sense at least on my quick read of the recent replies. I don't think it's necessarily an either/or sort of thing (either it's the "epidemic of trees" OR it's global warming). From the first paper I linked above, Effects of Climate Change on Range Expansion by the Mountain Pine Beetle in British Columbia:
Quote:
Despite its signifi cant distribution, the current latitudinal and elevational range of mountain pine beetle in western Canada is not restricted by the availability of suitable host trees. Indeed, lodgepole pine extends north into the Yukon and Northwest Territories, and east across much of Alberta. Instead, the potential for mountain pine beetles to expand north and east is currently limited by climate (e.g., Safranyik 1978). It is anticipated that under global warming, former climatically hostile environments will become climatically benign, allowing mountain pine beetle to signifi cantly expand its range (Logan and Powell 2001). Currently, mountain pine beetle populations are at epidemic levels in BC. Observations suggest that infestations may be occurring in areas previously considered climatically unfavorable (Safranyik et al. 1975). This study was initiated to determine if (i) there has been a shift in climatically benign habitats for mountain pine beetles during the recent past, and (ii) mountain pine beetle populations have expanded into these new habitats.
So that's the story up north - the beetle has expanded range in a way that can be explained by climate, but not merely by presence of lodgepole pine (which is only one of its host species, though apparently its favorite). The second paper I linked above provides analysis suggesting that even in the western US, there is range expansion that can be better explained by climate than by merely looking at presence of trees. I would not be surprised if forest management practice and GW are combining forces to exacerbate the impact of the beetles. (this falls under the category of "sometimes these scientists aren't quite as dumb as you may think - they actually think about the same questions you're asking, and try to answer them!") David1 is right - things are changing. That would be true with or without us, and we are of course natural beings of this planet (and nylon is a natural fiber). And unlike other beings of this planet, at least to the best of our knowledge, we differ in a key respect - we can make these analyses, and try to make choices about how to proceed into the future, and hope we get it right more than we get it wrong.

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PostThu Jun 03, 2010 10:50 am 
Your right. The epidemic of trees refers to the ponderosa pine and mixed conifer type on the east slope of the Cascades. The part that use to burn on a fairly regular basis prior to settlement. Lodgepole has always had a boom and bust cycle. Some of the sub-alpine fir forests also fit in the same category.

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PostThu Jun 03, 2010 2:53 pm 
AllisonW wrote:
I'm too lazy to do your homework on this, but a quick Google search will get you pointed in the right direction.
Like this, right? Global Warming Link in Dispute

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