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MtnGoat
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PostWed Jan 25, 2012 1:58 pm 
Will maintainance costs imposed by regulation of forest roads go even higher?
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For 35 years, the Environmental Protection Agency has understood silviculture -- the act of harvesting trees, as opposed to processing them -- to be an agricultural activity, not a manufacturing one. The distinction is vital because of particulars in the Clean Water Act. Runoff from "point-source" manufacturing facilities (including saw mills) is closely regulated. Permits are required, and an involved monitoring and remediation process is prescribed. On the other hand, the "natural runoff" from forest roads -- basically mud puddles that accumulate in ditches -- has never required such permits or monitoring. It is cared for through what is known as "best management practices." But in the case Georgia-Pacific West Inc. v. Northwest Environmental Defense Center, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals turned this long-standing rule on its head. The court said that the EPA has been misinterpreting its own rules for 35 years, and that, in fact, forest roads must be regulated in similar fashion to factories and power plants.
Georgia-Pacific is headed to the Supreme Court, which will decide in June whether to hear it.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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cascadeclimber
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PostWed Jan 25, 2012 2:31 pm 
"Mud puddles" aren't significant. Things like this, which happen with regularity, are...
I don't know enough about this to have an opinion, but there does seem to be some spin in what you quoted.

If not now, when?
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mike
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PostWed Jan 25, 2012 2:35 pm 
ditto.gif As one who has worked for the litigant it isn't the mud puddles that are the problem and it is disingenuous to refer to the runoff as such.

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MtnGoat
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PostWed Jan 25, 2012 2:38 pm 
I can understand the necessity to address issues like the photo shown, but I also understand the amply proven characteristic of regulation to explode far beyond rational limits.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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mike
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PostWed Jan 25, 2012 2:48 pm 
MtnGoat wrote:
characteristic of regulation to explode far beyond rational limits.
I agree, definitely something to avoid.

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treeswarper
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PostWed Jan 25, 2012 3:08 pm 
It isn't the puddles, it is the runoff. Runoff happens whether the road is used by tourii or log trucks. It'll just be another permit to get, and another expense and another hurdle or maybe the end of operations as we know it. It isn't just "dirt" roads. All roads here were rocked so they would not wash away during the rainy season and so they could be used during wet weather. We are talking gravel, or aggregate roads with a sublayer of large, pit run rock. The true test is to check the creek above the operations then check below. If mud from the operations is entering the creek, time for loggers to go home. Buffering creeks pretty much takes care of any silt runoff in what I've checked by eyeballing it. No, I did not take water samples, just looked for discoloration. But that's common sense. shakehead.gif Runoff is usually handled by ditches and culverts, and the ditch relief culverts are designed to not empty into creeks as per today's BMPs. A joke in the woods is a fresh, out of school hydrologist stating that ditchlines must be bladed and cleaned out, but the grass in the ditches left undisturbed. Can't be done no matter what the skill of the grader operator is. Maybe roads will be closed to ALL traffic during wet weather.

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Slugman
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PostWed Jan 25, 2012 3:21 pm 
Something that is false can't be shown to be "amply proven" just by someone saying it is. Regulations exist because the entities being regulated were dishonest or incompetent to begin with, and were harming the public interest. It is true that dedicated corporate shills will constantly say that all regulations are beyond rational limits, showing that assertion to be hogwash.

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MtnGoat
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PostWed Jan 25, 2012 4:24 pm 
What about dedicated anticorporate shills? wink.gif

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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treeswarper
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PostWed Jan 25, 2012 5:04 pm 
MtnGoat wrote:
What about dedicated anticorporate shills? wink.gif
Good point. Who won't answer about their level of expertise. I have given part of my background, but apparently other folks are above that. Slugman seems to be commenting, but gives no examples of his experience. He could take some quickie courses in road design and construction. They do exist. Then maybe he could give some constructive criticism. Tree School which is held at Clackamas Community College on March 24 has a little primer on roads and planning. Yup, I'm a shill who has looked at more roads and ditches than you could imagine....mud too. And, I'm proud to have done so. You Slug? What experience do you have that pertains to road design, construction and maintenance. He won't answer.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Ranger Smith
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PostWed Jan 25, 2012 5:51 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
Yup, I'm a shill who has looked at more roads and ditches than you could imagine....mud too. And, I'm proud to have done so. You Slug? What experience do you have that pertains to road design, construction and maintenance.
ditto.gif

I'm a man, I can change, if I have to, I guess.
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Kim Brown
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PostWed Jan 25, 2012 11:16 pm 
The USFS and other land managers operate on an MOU so a CWA permit is not required . So its not like the USFS is getting away with anything. Does the EPA monitor what's going on? Doubtful. Citizens are the best monitors and defenders of regulations, though they do go too far sometimes. As treeswarper points out, ditches clean the water.

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treeswarper
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PostThu Jan 26, 2012 8:14 am 
Nope ditches do not clean the water, gentle reader--ditches manage where the water goes. Actually, the FS is getting away from ditches. The bane of winter logging, roads that are outsloped, have replaced roads with ditches in some areas, and then culverts are done away with by designing "drain dips" and waterbars instead. Outsloped roads are not good for those of us who drive on them in the winter. I don't think an explanation is necessary. Drain dips have to be designed by somebody who really is good at what they do, because if put in too deeply, cars will scrape and loaded log trucks will break their reaches. Badly designed dips have to be bladed out before hauling can take place. The same goes for "drivable" waterbars. Waterbars are much cheaper to put in roads than culverts. However, because of the abundance of waterbars on roads around here, I did not buy another Subaru. I got a pickup with higher clearance. A logger who lives down the road from me is not an engineer. However, he did a beautiful job of turning some ugly "drivable" waterbars into gentle drain dips that worked through the nasty storms we've had. I wish I could pay him to do that all over our roads.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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trestle
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PostThu Jan 26, 2012 10:18 am 
Isn't the ongoing conflict on the Suiattle road repairs enough evidence to see the potential ramifications if this ruling is accepted? We have seen first-hand how one person with an agenda can interrupt not only industrial production but public-backed maintenance. There's far more at stake here than just logging so please let us avoid oversimplification and agenda-driven finger pointing. Sluggo it's just as true that some will argue regulations don't even approach rational limits. Some of these have tremendous legal financing and maneuverability and are now able to counter mega-corporations that leave behind a pattern of negligence. Yes, thank goodness and yes, oh my goodness all at the same time. I hate corporate or individual negligence as much as anyone but I also fear the power of the lawsuit to turn our society on it's head and further disable our congressional bodies. The NorthWest Forest Plan addresses the issues of the case amply, does it not? Tough choices in the year ahead with one due in February.

"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
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MtnGoat
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PostThu Feb 23, 2012 9:57 am 
Quote:
Washington State, for example, has 57,000 miles of them, with at least one drain point per mile. But now the Circuit Court panel has decreed that each flow-way must be permitted or shut down. By one estimate, processing a single Clean Water Act approval costs a state $2,800, meaning the decision could saddle Washington alone with a $159.6 million bill.
how to close down forest roads via cost imposition.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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treeswarper
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PostThu Feb 23, 2012 10:09 am 
Ironically, if this goes through, there will likely be more sediment added to streams. It is my Eyes In The Woods theory. You'll have fewer or no logging operations going on during wet weather. There will be fewer or no eyes and bodies out there to keep culverts cleaned out and ditches unblocked. More washouts will happen. The very people that are being told they may not be working in the woods are the experts who keep roads repaired and in good shape. No timber harvest = less or no maintenance = more road washouts and decommissioning. We better start buying horses.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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