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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 02, 2014 4:00 pm 
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Correct.

Or, we might call it a market monopoly, which does no harm so long as it's not empowered to violate the right to compete against it.

I don't have an issue discussing the differing conditions of various forms of monopoly. Only those with the power to legally violate rights are harmful to the marketplace in a way which is not addressable through legal action against the violation of rights.

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RandyHiker
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PostTue Dec 02, 2014 4:10 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Correct.

Or, we might call it a market monopoly, which does no harm so long as it's not empowered to violate the right to compete against it.

I don't have an issue discussing the differing conditions of various forms of monopoly. Only those with the power to legally violate rights are harmful to the marketplace in a way which is not addressable through legal action against the violation of rights.

So then we agree that Judge Jackson was a jackass ?
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 02, 2014 4:12 pm 
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Yes. I never thought MS did anything but play market hardball in most cases, which I have no issues with. I found some of the IP theft arguments more compelling than I found any of the complaining about bundling and deals with platform makers, but I don't recall if the IP bidness was involved specifically in that suit or not.

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RandyHiker
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PostTue Dec 02, 2014 4:46 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Yes. I never thought MS did anything but play market hardball in most cases, which I have no issues with. I found some of the IP theft arguments more compelling than I found any of the complaining about bundling and deals with platform makers, but I don't recall if the IP bidness was involved specifically in that suit or not.

Those of us in the redmond hive mind apprieciate the support.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Dec 02, 2014 4:55 pm 
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Didn't see the need for the fuss. I can't say the evil empire does everything right, but they shouldn't be targets simply because they are big, successful and play hardball.

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drm
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PostWed Dec 03, 2014 10:26 am 
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Where is the dividing line between fair and unfair hardball? What about monopolistic predatory pricing, which means a competitor can only get in the market if they have comparable financial resources, which few will. Standard Oil even got servicers to change pricing. Upstarts paid railroads more for transport than Std Oil did. I think that they had over 90% market share for refined oil products in the US when they were broken up.

As to government empowering monopolies, the financial resources of some monopolies enables them to buy that government support. But these days some people think that is just good ol' free speech - but that's another topic.

Of course utilities are often granted monopolies, and then regulated accordingly (in theory).
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MtnGoat
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PostWed Dec 03, 2014 12:09 pm 
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I wouldn't attempt to decide what is 'fair'. I'd look at the case, see if anyone's rights were violated, and use that for the determination.

IF Standard Oil had 90% of the market share, and *if* they were not achieving this via theft, fraud, or violence, and *if* they were not the beneficiaries of some govt imposed limitation on competitors, then I'd see no reason to break them up or conclude their share was unjust.

How I'd deal with the free speech issue is not by limiting free speech, but by removing the source of the problem which is that the power exists for sale in the first place. If the power to protect an industry or product does not exist, it cannot be sold.

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drm
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PostWed Dec 03, 2014 7:03 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
How I'd deal with the free speech issue is not by limiting free speech, but by removing the source of the problem which is that the power exists for sale in the first place. If the power to protect an industry or product does not exist, it cannot be sold.

How did the first dictatorships come about? Power is created by those with resources and the desire where it didn't exist before. Those with the resources make the power for themselves. They got the resources, formed armies, and simply took control, creating the power structures to enforce their rule.

The defense against this is a powerful government that is also subject to the rule of law. Balancing the two is the eternal challenge, and that challenge will never go away. The Founders did their best, but a piece of paper will never be the final solution to this challenge. That's why Franklin said we have a Republic - if we can keep it. It isn't up to a constitution, it is up to us.

But thinking that we can have a society where there is no excessive power to take is the height of naivete. Somebody is going to make it if it isn't already there, unless we find a way to stop them.
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MtnGoat
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PostThu Dec 04, 2014 1:51 pm 
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It's pretty basic.  You ban the power and then no one gets it legally, and those who take it illegally, are actionable.

I'm not arguing for govt to have no power. I'm arguing to limit where and how it is used, so that the rest is used to police places where it is used unjustly.

No one can *legally* make up the power to commit illegal acts when the govt does have the power to stop it. There is a difference between not having the power to mandate ethanol production, for example, and not having the power to police a private party forcing another to produce it agains their will. Same product, different principles, different power split. You can easily ban the govt from having the power to do the former while retaining the power to redress the latter.

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MadCapLaughs
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PostMon May 04, 2015 9:32 pm 
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More SHOCKING fracking news: would you believe that it contaminates drinking water? Who would have guessed? Link.

From the link:

Quote:
"‘This is the first documented and published demonstration of toxic compounds escaping from uncased boreholes in shale gas wells and moving long distances’ into drinking water,” Susan Brantley, one of the study's authors, told the Associated Press.
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drm
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PostMon May 11, 2015 8:38 am 
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I think that the frackers are going to rue the day that they lobbied for unregulated activities. Many of the documented damages like this case and others would probably have been prevented had the industry been properly regulated. With natural gas so cheap and margins tight, they are not really motivated to do it clean and right. Now they have a horrible reputation that is going to be hard to fix. One comment I saw in a magazine that surveyed the evidence said that it was possible to do fracking safely and cleanly but that frequently this was not the case. It's been very sloppy.
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Pyrites
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PostTue May 12, 2015 1:10 pm 
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Cases which show stopping or altering a proposed project, that in fact save the proponent or successors a fortune are seldom noted.
The classic, but forgotten, case in Puget Sound was the Brown Farm, Nisqually Delta Landfill, to be built and operated by City of Seattle, Engineering Department, Landfill Division. They assured that of course they'd manage waste so that no bad chemicals would get into the landfill.
A small local group, The Nisqually Delta Association arose, and stopped this project as well as WEYCO's deep water port. They then pushed for and got the refuge established. (Look for a thank you plaque at refuge. There is none. Too political for the FWS.)
Instead Seattle used the Kent Midway and Highlands landfills. And of course management failed to deliver the product promised. Seattle spent a fortune after closure.
Now back to the Nisqually. We know they failed to deliver the product promised at Kent. And that mitigation costs after the fact we're a fortune at the relatively benign sites in Kent. Can anyone imagine that mitigation on those compressible, wet, with sporadic artesian springs throughout, would not have been higher by an order of magnitude of more?
Anyone think the City ever sent the Nisqually Delta Association a thank you for saving our taxpayers a fortune letter?
But corporations can be created and dissolved at will. Maybe the plan is that before liability arises the frackers corporations will disappear.

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PostTue May 12, 2015 10:57 pm 
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pyrites wrote:
"...back to the Nisqually..."

errrr.... for all the good it did.

did they every get them to upgrade the Tatsolo treatment plant?

oh... wait... that's DoD... they get to do whatever they want.

(too bad you weren't at that public meeting when Johnny Mount (for whom Mounts Road is named, and the man who donated about half the delta to the tribe) whipped out the underwater photos he hired a crew of divers to take just offshore a wee bit south of Tatsolo.... the "blob" (as he referred to it) was about 600 feet long, about 20-30 feet deep, and about 60 feet wide. it kind of swung back and forth with the tide.... kinda like a lava lamp or one of those "ocean in a bottle" things.... )

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MtnGoat
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PostThu Mar 01, 2018 2:20 pm 
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U.S. crude oil production hit record high in November: EIA

Quote:
U.S. crude oil production shattered a 47-year output record in November and retreated slightly in December, the U.S. Energy Department said on Wednesday, as oil production from shale continued to upend global supply patterns.

As argued, domestic production places a price *cap* on what cartels can do. Price rises, marginal plays become profitable, production increases. Markets work. If you let them.

Quote:
Soaring U.S. production kept a lid on oil prices this year, even though the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries and Russia have reduced output.


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MtnGoat
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PostThu Mar 15, 2018 10:51 am 
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One down, one to go.

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