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Ski
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PostSun Dec 01, 2019 1:05 pm 
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Sculpin wrote:
Pick-ups are tools, sure.  But they are also purchased as status symbols.

Were it not for the jacked-up, dual-axled, knobby-tired F350s and RAM 2500s and Silverado HD2500s cruising on the Interstate, what would we have to laugh at when we're commuting?

lol.gif

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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MtnGoat
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PostSun Dec 01, 2019 2:36 pm 
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That's an easy one. The folks complaining about other people wasting resources...as they see it, while continuing to justify their own non essential uses.  tongue.gif

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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treeswarper
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PostSun Dec 01, 2019 5:48 pm 
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I never realized I was driving a "status symbol".  I would much rather have a small car or one of them Subaru Status Symbols that are all over.  But they won't pull my trailer over a pass.  My former Status Symbol got me around in the woods and hauled quite a bit of firewood to heat my house.  Randle folk tend to have to have status symbols, some of which are showing signs of wear and probably shouldn't be on the road.  Does that mean they are of a lower status?  Perhaps we should get a grant and write up a paper on that.

I did see a Subaru being used as a crew rig on a logging side.  They were even pulling line with it.  The owner got it for cheap and was good at fixing whatever they broke on it.  It did smell like something was burning whilst it was pulling line.  Perhaps it too could be a status symbol? 

I truly hate buying a new or new to me vehicle.  I'd rather get a root canal.

Oh, and my last work truck was a Chevy Silverado.  It was much more comfy to ride in, (especially when you had bruised ribs or other owies) than a Ford.  It also got me where I needed to be with what I needed to work with.  Status symbol--pitoeey.   I drive what I need, not what I want.


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treeswarper
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PostSun Dec 01, 2019 5:48 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
That's an easy one. The folks complaining about other people wasting resources...as they see it, while continuing to justify their own non essential uses.  tongue.gif

up.gif  up.gif

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Ski
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PostSun Dec 01, 2019 6:12 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
Must've hit a nerve, eh?

sure looks like it!  lol.gif

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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 6:01 am 
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If it makes Sculpin feel better, I've owned two Subarus.  They are good snow cars, but suck if you have to haul your garbage to the dump which can then only be done during good weather because windows have to be open to deal with the stench.  They also don't haul much firewood. 

If I wanted a "Status Car" I'd get one of those big finned old Cadillacs.  Perhaps even a pink one, with blingy license plate frames.   up.gif

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moonspots
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 6:53 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
If it makes Sculpin feel better, I've owned two Subarus. 

up.gif

I'd like to own a Subie, but then I couldn't get to the transmitter sites I need 24/7 access to in the winter. Even with the "SS" pickup I cannot sometimes, but then it is fortunate that I don't often have to haul heavy parts up the hill in the snow. I can put on snowshoes (and I've done that in a blizzard) and hauled parts/docs in a backpack. Lot of work in 1-2' of snow for an "old guy".

And the Subie couldn't haul decking, railing material, 4x8 sheets of OSB or plywood, or 12' 2x8s, and I don't have anywhere to store a trailer and so on. Or even just getting out of the driveway some days requires more than a little "eco-buggy"!

12-27-09
12-27-09

So, the proper tool of choice is the big 'ol pickup.

Further, why anyone would be in the least bit concerned about what vehicle someone else is driving is completely beyond me! If parts are not falling off leaving hazards in the road ahead of me, then whatever they want to spend their monetary resources on is completely not my concern. I don't care....it has no bearing on my life.

And not it's time for me to get into the tool of choice and go make some proper monetary decisions.

Cheers, all!

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neek
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 7:46 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
That's an easy one. The folks complaining about other people wasting resources...as they see it, while continuing to justify their own non essential uses.  tongue.gif

Sure, people can laugh about whatever they want, but this is a distortion of reality.  Trucks and SUVs pollute more and kill more than smaller vehicles.  They take up more space and their weight causes more road damage.  Markups are higher on them because manufacturers understand the psychology of people who buy them (or at least, the market does).  Also, who's justifying non-essential usage?  I don't feel great driving my '99 Tacoma (high five treeswarper!) to a trailhead by myself (small car + ebike would be better), and welcome anyone to mock me for it.  Social pressure can be negative (observe the overconsumption of modern times which has been shown again and again to not actually lead to increased happiness), but for the most part I would say slowly leads us in a positive direction as we hash out what's sensible and what's not.
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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 8:46 am 
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Subsea do not get that much more mpg than a F 150 per the EPA unless hybrid.

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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MtnGoat
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 9:04 am 
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Neek, it is small cars that kill more people wether or not they collide with a larger rig.

Physics...

Quote:
By lightening cars and removing material, auto companies were inadvertently discarding the armor that protected motorists in the event of a crash. Similarly, the compressed new models lacked space for impact forces to attenuate before causing damage and injury. Drivers in lightweight cars were as much as twelve times more likely to die in a crash.

Quote:
Studies have repeatedly demonstrated the fatal results of mileage regulations, starting in 1989 with the Brookings Institution (in collaboration with the Harvard School of Public Health), followed by USA Today in 1999, the National Academy of Sciences in 2001, and at last the federal government's own National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration in 2003. This formidable lineup of organizations all came to the same conclusion: Fuel standards kill.

According to the Brookings Institution, a 500-lb weight reduction of the average car increased annual highway fatalities by 2,200-3,900 and serious injuries by 11,000 and 19,500 per year. USA Today found that 7,700 deaths occurred for every mile per gallon gained in fuel economy standards. Smaller cars accounted for up to 12,144 deaths in 1997, 37% of all vehicle fatalities for that year. The National Academy of Sciences found that smaller, lighter vehicles "probably resulted in an additional 1,300 to 2,600 traffic fatalities in 1993." The National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration study demonstrated that reducing a vehicle's weight by only one hundred pounds increased the fatality rate by as much as 5.63% for light cars, 4.70% for heavier cars, and 3.06% for light trucks. These rates translated into additional traffic fatalities of 13,608 for light cars, 10,884 for heavier cars, and 14,705 for light trucks between 1996 and 1999.

As for wear and tear on roads, they already pay more for the more wear and tear because they get worse mileage. We could argue about what the correct fuel tax is for wear and tear, but whatever is decided upon innately scales with the mileage of a heavier rig. As long as costs are correctly accounted for with a fuel tax, I have never put much stock into worries about increased wear. Roads are intended to be used, and things that are used wear out and need repair..so figure out the correct formula, repair as necessary...and use away!

I don't feel the need to mock you cuz i like you, lol. But I will gently point out that as non essential goes, *any* trip to the mountains for pleasure is by definition non essential. It's for this reason I shy away from claims of 'non essential' for usage against people's choices. Pleasure trips, ego trips, consumption for it's own sake as seen by some third party...it is all subjective.

Thanks for the comments though, I appreciate the arguments.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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neek
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 8:08 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Neek, it is small cars that kill more people wether or not they collide with a larger rig.

It's obvious who wins in a collision between a tank and a tin can.  Crash into a concrete wall and it's more a function of crumple zones, airbags, and other safety features.  The Model 3 for example has a higher safety rating than an F-150 but weighs 1500 pounds less.  I'd buy that there's a rough correlation between weight and occupant safety, but that's probably more due to cost minimizing.  Pedestrians fare worse with larger vehicles and kids are more likely to get run over because of visibility issues.  There are backup cameras and proximity alarms now so it can get complicated.  The point is that with so many big cars on the road I'm basically forced to buy a gas guzzler (or a Tesla I suppose) if I care about my family's safety, and that's not fair.  Your desire not to judge is commendable, but when it affects me personally, yeah I'm going to judge.  Fuel tax is great but will be moot in say 10 years when most cars are electric.  (How about a tax on studded tires?)  For sure mountain trips are non-essential, but I don't feel bad urging people to carpool.  (Which, btw, is safer too--you have someone to keep you awake, pretty important given that drowsy driving kills more than drunk driving.)  Which finally gets me to the topic of this thread--energy independence is very much a good thing, I just wish we'd focus more on reducing waste.  Food production has a large carbon footprint for example yet we throw 40% of it away.  If it really made people happy to throw food away we'd have some sort of value judgment to make but things like that just seem unambiguously bad.  I could come up with other examples but you'd probably be less likely to agree with them.
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