Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Twisp residents indicted on wolf killing charges
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treeswarper
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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 7:20 am 
MadCapLaughs wrote:
And farming and ranching both necessitate the displacement of native species and the wholesale destruction of native ecosystems for the benefit of domestic monoculture - and for the benefit of their wallets.
Love the ignorance here. Where do you live? In a cave? I'm sure you never drive on a cleared, paved road. Gawd, how many generations are you removed from when your people lived on a farm? The ignorance is unbelievable. The cities on the west side of the Cascades occupy what was wetlands and forest. Excellent growing forest land. Now it is paved over. How can you holler about farming, from which you benefit as I assume you eat food, and live in a paved over wetland/old growth forest? Ranchers and farmers feed wildlife whether they want to or not. I drove through a herd of groundhogs (marmots) last month that were returning to the rocks after munching away on alfalfa. Seagulls move in when the hay is cut to munch on any mice that appear. Deer munch on haystacks in the winter. Birds eat wheat that is left on the ground. Deer munch on apples, peaches, pears, as do elk, bears, birds, etc. Enough examples? Yup, time do do away with the people who feed YOU. Hope you have a patch of dirt you can garden in....oops, that might affect the wildlife so you'll have to let it go native. Better read up on eating native plants. And making clothing out of cedar....wait, there probably aren't many cedars left in your neighborhood! You'll just have to freeze to death.

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onemoremile
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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 9:51 am 
Monoculture is really bad for the ecosystem. It is cheap, that it why it is practiced. Farms can be biodiverse, too--look at the permaculture designs. They don't require herbicides/fungicides/pesticides or fertilizers, and yield between 2-3 times as much harvest per unit of land. They require more effort at the start and finesse during harvest. Farming can be improved, but prices would likely have to go up.

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Schenk
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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 10:29 am 
MadCapLaughs wrote:
Hunters almost uniformly advocate for the eradication of native species.
What???? eradication of native species????? Where did you get that notion? You should not base your opinion about hunters, ranchers, farmers, on a few bad posts by a few inbred hillbillies and look at the bigger picture. Look at the conservation efforts of groups like...oh, say, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Ducks Unlimited, Trout unlimited, etc, etc... It is OK to be passionate about one side of an issue, or another...it is another thing to vilify individuals, or groups, with false generalizations.

Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 11:55 am 
They are to over populated otherwise they wouldn't have been delisted. Wolves have never been nor should they be a 1:1 ratio to deer and/or elk. That would totally be stupid situation and cause the extinction of both animals. Wolves are a managed animal just like any other, to think their population should be they same as others is absurd. They would kill all the animals and end up starving to death or going after humans, etc.

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RickS
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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 12:44 pm 
They are not overpopulated.
Sky Hiker wrote:
They are to over populated otherwise they wouldn't have been delisted. Wolves have never been nor should they be a 1:1 ratio to deer and/or elk. That would totally be stupid situation and cause the extinction of both animals. Wolves are a managed animal just like any other, to think their population should be they same as others is absurd. They would kill all the animals and end up starving to death or going after humans, etc.
Wolves are not overpopulated. Wolves have coexisted alongside elk and deer for many thousands of years. Wolves will not kill all the animals. This is a typical misinformed claim made by those who hate wolves and who think wolves are going to wipe out all of the deer and elk. Elk and deer are not easy animals for wolves to kill. There are by far many more elk and deer than wolves and it is the wolf's job to keep the elk and deer herds in check, not the human hunter. Wolves self-regulate themselves. They have been doing so for many thousands of years. It's ignorant and absurd to think the only way to manage an animal is by letting a hunter put a bullet in it. up.gif up.gif up.gif

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RickS
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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 12:47 pm 
It's not a few posts. It's many posts. You really are delusional if you think that a lot of hunters in WA like or want wolves around. Educate yourself on the real and factual truth. Here is a good article to start. http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2011/08/are-hunters-good-wildlife-stewards-when-it-comes-wolves-not-according-study8582 "While hunters long have been seen as conservation advocates for a wide range of species, when it comes to wolves the study by two University of Wisconsin-Madison researchers would seem to indicate that the only good wolf is a dead wolf in the hunter's mind. “Hunters were some of the least tolerant of wolves among our respondents, and the closer you got to wolf range the less tolerant they were,” said Adrian Treves, a professor in the UW-Madison Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies."

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Schenk
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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 1:44 pm 
Do you actually hang out with any real hunters? or do you just believe everything you read as long as it supports your opinion? OK, here is a quote from the same article you referenced: Another finding, which Professor Treves found surprising, was the "level of support expressed for a regulated wolf hunt among non-hunters and those living outside wolf range. And a conclusion made by Treves on the above finding: “To me that says that people see hunting as a tool for enabling coexistence,” Professor Treves said. Treves findings are also based upon an incredibly insignificant sample size, just over 2300 people (not just hunters) interviewed in 6 years? Sounds more like informal interviews rather than an actual poll. My beef isn't with Wolves...It is your blanket categorization of hunters, Ranchers, and the like. Do you support keeping Bison off rancher's rangeland to prevent the spread of diseases that can negativley impact domestic livestock (cattle)? My guess is that you probably don't since this is quite similar to the complaint Ranchers have against Wolves; a negative impact on their livestock.

Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
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Slugman
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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 3:07 pm 
I was reading an article in National Geographic about wolf reintroduction and wolf killings. In one picture, some protestors were holding up signs saying things like "Stop Animal Genocide". My first thought was "Oh, those enviros are protesting the killing of wolves". But that wasn't it at all! It was hunters claiming the wolves themselves were the practitioners of the genocide! They were demanding "animal genocide" against the wolves based on the ignorant lie that the wolves would kill all the game animals (and in the article they were quoted as saying the wolves were killing people and terrorizing entire communities). Now maybe theses sign holders were not representative of hunters in general, I certainly hope so, because their signs, and their beliefs, were based on ignorance and dishonesty. I know for a fact that it is a "talking point" that wolves are rapacious killers that wipe out entire game species and are a massive threat to humans. My own GF's brother tried to tell me it's a fact that there are no deer left in Montana because of "hybridized wolves" which have wiped out the entire deer population and that no one dares to leave their home without being heavily armed. crazy.gif I always find it amazing how easily people believe complete nonsense as long as it aligns with their own desires. Notice I said "people" and not "certain kinds of people". No one is immune to this tendency unless they consciously fight it, and question the validity of their own beliefs.

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RickS
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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 4:20 pm 
It is your blanket categorization of hunters, Ranchers, and the like. In my own personal opinion, a lot of hunters and ranchers hate wolves. You are very delusional if you think most hunters and ranchers like wolves or want them around. http://mtstandard.com/news/local/hatred-of-predators-reaches-ridiculous-fervor/article_3e418c46-47ba-11e1-b87a-0019bb2963f4.html?mode=story

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RickS
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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 4:22 pm 
Schenk wrote:
Do you actually hang out with any real hunters? or do you just believe everything you read as long as it supports your opinion? OK, here is a quote from the same article you referenced: Another finding, which Professor Treves found surprising, was the "level of support expressed for a regulated wolf hunt among non-hunters and those living outside wolf range. And a conclusion made by Treves on the above finding: “To me that says that people see hunting as a tool for enabling coexistence,” Professor Treves said. Treves findings are also based upon an incredibly insignificant sample size, just over 2300 people (not just hunters) interviewed in 6 years? Sounds more like informal interviews rather than an actual poll. My beef isn't with Wolves...It is your blanket categorization of hunters, Ranchers, and the like. Do you support keeping Bison off rancher's rangeland to prevent the spread of diseases that can negativley impact domestic livestock (cattle)? My guess is that you probably don't since this is quite similar to the complaint Ranchers have against Wolves; a negative impact on their livestock.
“Hunters were some of the least tolerant of wolves among our respondents, and the closer you got to wolf range the less tolerant they were,” said Adrian Treves, a professor in the UW-Madison Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies."

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MadCapLaughs
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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 4:32 pm 
Schenk wrote:
What???? eradication of native species????? Where did you get that notion?
Wolves.
Schenk wrote:
You should not base your opinion about hunters, ranchers, farmers, on a few bad posts by a few inbred hillbillies and look at the bigger picture. Look at the conservation efforts of groups like...oh, say, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation - advocating for the artificial inflation of elk numbers by slaughtering native species (wolves). Just like I said in my original post. See?

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MadCapLaughs
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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 4:41 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
Love the ignorance here
You apparently don't know the definition of ignorance. You apparently have poor reading comprehension, too. Your mostly-unintelligible rant has very little to do with my previous post. The part you quoted is fact, not my opinion or politics. No ecologist would argue with it. Nothing has led to the loss of more species and biodiversity than agriculture and ranching/herding. I was stating a fact, and you respond with an emotional rant that makes all sorts of unfounded assumptions and silly projections. Predictable and sad how your bigoted mind immediately stereotypes me as an urban resident of the west side.

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PostWed Jul 18, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Sky Hiker
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PostThu Jul 19, 2012 5:33 am 
The RMEF has done more to purchase land so wildlife is free to roam more than any of those extremist groups from where your quotes come. RMEF is leading a conservation initiative that has protected or enhanced habitat on more than 6 million acres—an area larger than Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Glacier, Yosemite, Rocky Mountain and Great Smoky Mountains national parks combined.

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PostThu Jul 19, 2012 6:18 am 
Sky Hiker wrote:
The RMEF has done more to purchase land so wildlife is free to roam more than any of those extremist groups from where your quotes come. RMEF is leading a conservation initiative that has protected or enhanced habitat on more than 6 million acres—an area larger than Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Glacier, Yosemite, Rocky Mountain and Great Smoky Mountains national parks combined.
And now they are a radical extremist anti-wolf organization. up.gif up.gif up.gif http://www.cascwild.org/press-release-murie-family-cautions-rocky-mountain-elk-foundation-over-anti-wolf-rhetoric/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=press-release-murie-family-cautions-rocky-mountain-elk-foundation-over-anti-wolf-rhetoric

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