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treeswarper
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PostThu Jul 19, 2012 7:16 am 
MadCapLaughs wrote:
treeswarper wrote:
Love the ignorance here
You apparently don't know the definition of ignorance. You apparently have poor reading comprehension, too. Your mostly-unintelligible rant has very little to do with my previous post. The part you quoted is fact, not my opinion or politics. No ecologist would argue with it. Nothing has led to the loss of more species and biodiversity than agriculture and ranching/herding. I was stating a fact, and you respond with an emotional rant that makes all sorts of unfounded assumptions and silly projections. Predictable and sad how your bigoted mind immediately stereotypes me as an urban resident of the west side.
Of course habitat has been lost. Why do you think we live? There is no way that people can live and not affect wildlife. If there is, please let me know. We are part of the ecosystem and have always impacted other species, just as they impact us. I have a problem with you condemning farming, ranching, logging, etc. as if these activities are the ONLY things affecting wildlife in a negative way. Please explain why cities are exempt from this condemnation. After all, YOU need to take some of the heat too. Do you live where a wetland was? Or on a developed former old growth area? Rant? Well I'm certainly not going to ignore your pronouncements. Should I sit back and be silent while you rant about the things that feed and clothe us? Whilst you seem to think your own excrement does not stink? Now go out and find your cave and set and example for us. Tear down your house. "RESTORE your little plot of land. Like I tell others, you need to walk your talk. My "farmer" friends meanwhile, are feeding elk year round and repairing fences damaged by the elk. Their tree farm is feeding elk and bear. They've lost a dog to coyotes. They've just had to have a meeting with interested parties so they can log a few trees on THEIR OWN LAND. Do you undergo the same processes for things you do on your land? I think not. Now get in your car and drive to that Latte stand. Meanwhile, who else wants to resurrect the Friends of Seattle movement?

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Sky Hiker
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PostThu Jul 19, 2012 9:59 am 
WELL SAID

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BeyondLost
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PostThu Jul 19, 2012 6:30 pm 
To get this thread back on topic of the poachers, from the Methow Valley News online. I was rather surprised at the minimal state penalties for taking deer illegally and especially for the illegal bear hunting. And as noted by the Wildlife officer, they showed no contrition and gave no explanation for their actions.
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ALSO NEW ON THE WEB: State hands down sentences in White cases; judge lauds family’s community contributions By ANN McCREARY Twisp rancher William D. “Bill” White was sentenced Thursday (July 19) to five days of community service, two years of probation and a $6,000 fine after pleading guilty to killing a trophy deer out of season, a violation of state law. During a hearing in Okanogan County District Court, Judge Henry Rawson initially sentenced White to 364 days in jail with all but five days suspended. He agreed to convert the five days in jail to five days of community service at the request of White’s attorney. White, 62, and his son Tom, 37, also pleaded guilty to a state charge of illegally hunting black bear with dogs, and each will lose their hunting licenses for five years as a result. Tom White received no further sentence, with the exception of $43 in court fees. The proceedings in district court were the final step in a case that began more than three years ago when an investigation of a bloody wolf pelt, found in a package at a FedEx office in Omak in 2008, resulted in numerous federal and state charges against Bill and Tom White, and Tom’s wife, Erin. Bill and Tom White agreed to plead guilty to the state wildlife charges as part of an agreement in a federal case that charged them with killing at least two endangered gray wolves and other wildlife violations. In federal court in Spokane last week, Bill White was sentenced to six months of in-home detention, almost $40,000 in fines and restitution, and three years of probation. Tom White was sentenced to three months of in-home detention, about $30,000 in fines and restitution, and three years of probation. During the sentencing on the state charges Thursday, Judge Rawson noted that Bill White has no previous criminal record. The judge also said he had been provided numerous letters of support for White that cited his involvement in church and community activities such as Kiwanis, 4-H and the county fair. “The court would like to hear where you went off the path, so to speak,” said Rawson, inviting White to address the court. “I’m just sick and tired of it. If I could sleep a full night’s sleep and get back the 20 pounds I had ….” White responded. The Whites raise cattle and manage timber on a 600-acre ranch near Lookout Mountain just outside Twisp. White told the court he has a history of cooperating with state game officials by helping hunt problem cougars and bears, and allowing licensed hunters to hunt on his property. “I don’t know how many thousands the game department has made off my letting people hunt on my property. People in town who want to take pictures of wildlife, they come right to my place. My place is abundant with wildlife. It makes you feel good you’ve provided such a good place for wildlife,” White said. White also talked about his role in helping develop a program in which road-kill deer were collected and provided to Native American tribal members. Noting the publicity his case has gotten in the press over the past three years, White added, “the public forgets all the good you do.” After sentencing White to community service on the state deer charge, Rawson chose not to impose any other penalties for the bear hunting charge. “Not too many defendants take the time to address the court,” said Rawson, adding that he saw “great qualities” in White. “The court takes that into consideration. The … community service gets you out doing something you already do. Some people don’t take the time to be involved in their communities, and help their fellow man. You’re on the ground helping in the community,” Rawson said. “You’ve experienced aspects of the law most people don’t experience,” Rawson added. “You have a heavy financial burden. You approached the court today with utmost respect. I want to wish you the best in the future and your continued involvement in your community.” Tom White, who pleaded guilty to illegally hunting bear with dogs, was also asked to address the court during his sentencing. “This whole thing has been really trying on our family. ... I want to be done with this and get on with our lives,” he said. “I understand the laws we broke and what we did wrong.” Tom White noted that the financial penalties from the federal case are more than $35,000 for himself and his wife Erin, who was fined $5,000 on a charge of conspiracy to export an endangered species. And, he added, the negative publicity has been hard on his family. “You don’t even have a speeding ticket on your criminal history,” the judge commented. Noting the “substantial restitution” imposed by the federal court, Rawson said he chose not to recommend further financial penalties. “It will be an uphill struggle for you and your family … with your financial obligation. I wish you the very best,” Rawson said. The judge ordered that Bill White should complete his community service by Sept. 15. White met with a probation officer after his court appearance to discuss how the sentence would be served. The judge also set Sept. 25 as the date for White to begin paying the $6,000 fine on the deer charge. Sgt. Jim Brown of the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife, helped investigate the case and attended the sentencing hearing. “I didn’t hear any contrition” in the Whites’ statements, Brown said after the hearing. He said he had hoped to hear “some kind of explanation” for the crimes to which they pleaded guilty. In U.S. District Court in last week, Bill White pleaded guilty to three charges, including conspiracy to take an endangered species and conspiracy to export endangered species, both misdemeanors. The third count, unlawful importation of wildlife, is a felony, and means that White will lose the right to own a gun. Tom White pleaded guilty last week in U.S. District Court to two misdemeanor counts of killing endangered gray wolves in May and December of 2008. The sentences in the state case might seem lenient if viewed “in isolation,” said David Gecas, Okanogan County deputy prosecuting attorney. “But this was contingent on them accepting what was offered in that (federal case) deal,” Gecas said. He said that the penalties imposed on the Whites “will serve as a deterrent both to them and others in society.” Date: 07-19-2012 | Volume: 110 | Issue: 11

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MadCapLaughs
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PostFri Jul 20, 2012 12:49 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
I have a problem with you condemning farming, ranching,
Once again, your response has almost nothing to do with what I posted. What I said is documented fact, not my opinion. Do you know the difference?
treeswarper wrote:
Please explain why cities are exempt from this condemnation
Perhaps you can quote where I said this? Oh, you can't? Of course not, because you are not arguing against what I actually said, you are arguing against the liberal urban boogeyman that exists only in your imagination. Your repeated petty insults about "lattes" is evidence of this small-minded prejudice.

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PostMon Jul 23, 2012 5:37 am 
http://www.standard.net/stories/2012/07/22/idaho-s-wolf-hunt-season-now-open-all-year By Kimberlee Kruesi The Times-News (Twin Falls, Idaho) staff Sun, 07/22/2012 - 8:23am TWIN FALLS . It’s not open everywhere, but Idaho hunters now have the option to kill wolves all year. This year’s newly approved wolf hunting season allowed hunters to begin killing wolves on private land in the Panhandle Zone starting July 1. The rest of the state will open for wolf hunting on Aug. 30, and most trapping areas will open Nov. 15. Previously, Idaho’s 2011-2012 wolf hunting season was open 10 months throughout most parts of the state. During that time, hunters killed 255 wolves and trappers killed 124. Hunters are allowed to purchase five wolf tags, but half the state’s zones only allow hunters to use two tags in that area. For trappers, five tags may be purchased and used in all trapping zones except the McCall-Weiser Zone. New changes to Idaho’s trapping rules include allowing the use of wolf carcasses as bait in the Panhandle Zone and approving the use of rimfire rifle, handgun or muzzle-loaded handguns to kill a wolf in a trap. The all-year hunting access isn’t sitting well with wildlife advocates. The newly approved rules are disappointing, said Suzanne Stone, Northern Rocky Mountains representative for the Defenders of Wildlife. When Idaho first started managing wolves, wildlife officials promised to control the canine predators like fellow big game species, such as mountain lions. But wolf hunting seasons rules have progressively loosened over time, Stone said. "This is the first time they can hunt wolves on private lands, but they don’t allow that for other species," Stone said. "That’s our biggest disappointment." According to the Idaho Department of Fish and Game’s website, mountain lion and bear hunting seasons do not allow hunters to use private land. Trapping is also not allowed for any of the big game species managed by Fish and Game. "They’re managing wolves like vermin," Stone said. "That’s a huge concern." Under federal law, Idaho must maintain at least 150 wolves and be home to at least 15 breeding pairs to keep the species off the endangered list. The wolf has been delisted in Idaho since May 2011. Not everyone is against the new hunt changes. Sportsmen groups approve the rules, saying it’s another example of what the state is obligated to do to properly handle wolves. "I support Fish and Game and what they have to do to manage wolves," said Jack Oyler, vice chairman of the Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife in Idaho. "This is a big game species and Idaho has a statute to follow. It’s the environmental groups that create the extra hype when it comes to wolves." ---

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treeswarper
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PostMon Jul 23, 2012 6:48 am 
[quote="BeyondLost"]To get this thread back on topic of the poachers, from the Methow Valley News online. I was rather surprised at the minimal state penalties for taking deer illegally and especially for the illegal bear hunting. And as noted by the Wildlife officer, they showed no contrition and gave no explanation for their actions. [quote] $40,000 and $30,000 in fines are minimal??? Those federal fines are huge for normal people. Why should the state pile on jail time? We already have a hard time finding room for violent criminals. I'm sure the legal fees are equally devastating. Plus, I also agree that for these guys, not being allowed to have firearms is a big deal. Very big. The jails are full. I think the Whites have been punished. I think they've learned.

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PostMon Jul 23, 2012 7:09 am 
treeswarper wrote:
$40,000 and $30,000 in fines are minimal??? Those federal fines are huge for normal people. Why should the state pile on jail time? We already have a hard time finding room for violent criminals. I'm sure the legal fees are equally devastating. Plus, I also agree that for these guys, not being allowed to have firearms is a big deal. Very big. The jails are full. I think the Whites have been punished. I think they've learned.
I agree. Yes they committed a crime, but the punishment should be swift, painful, and over with. $40K alone for most people would mean they would be paying for the crime for the rest of their lives. Way over the top. Added jail time is down right vindictive. As for gun ownership, if their crime is not against people (making them dangerous to humans) they should still be aloud to have 'em.

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PostMon Jul 23, 2012 7:16 am 
The fines you quote had nothing to do with the state charges per se. The penalty for the illegal deer taking was as quoted.
Quote:
Twisp rancher William D. “Bill” White was sentenced Thursday (July 19) to five days of community service, two years of probation and a $6,000 fine after pleading guilty to killing a trophy deer out of season, a violation of state law.
The penalty for illegal bear hunting was essentially nothing.
Quote:
White, 62, and his son Tom, 37, also pleaded guilty to a state charge of illegally hunting black bear with dogs, and each will lose their hunting licenses for five years as a result. Tom White received no further sentence, with the exception of $43 in court fees.
The Whites talked about all the good they had done which may be true. But, this is the closest they could come to admitting they ever did anything wrong.
Quote:
“I’m just sick and tired of it. If I could sleep a full night’s sleep and get back the 20 pounds I had ….” White responded.
Yes, they have been substantially penalized financially by the feds (although I doubt it even covers the court costs etc). I would agree with you that the absence of jail time makes sense if they had taken responsibility for their actions with a sincere admission that they had done wrong. Instead they just trotted out all their friends to talk about how good they were and never once took responsibility for all the bad stuff they did. Have they really learned? Their words in court surely don't prove that to me. I believe strongly in forgiveness and fresh starts. But, first you have to step up and admit what you did was wrong. I have not seen evidence of that.

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PostMon Jul 23, 2012 11:04 am 
I don't believe added jail time is down right vindictive. They should have been sent jail for a couple years. They should not be allowed to have guns. If they have guns, they will poach more animals. Poachers SHOULD BE GIVEN harsh sentences that include very high fines and jail time.
Alpendave wrote:
treeswarper wrote:
$40,000 and $30,000 in fines are minimal??? Those federal fines are huge for normal people. Why should the state pile on jail time? We already have a hard time finding room for violent criminals. I'm sure the legal fees are equally devastating. Plus, I also agree that for these guys, not being allowed to have firearms is a big deal. Very big. The jails are full. I think the Whites have been punished. I think they've learned.
I agree. Yes they committed a crime, but the punishment should be swift, painful, and over with. $40K alone for most people would mean they would be paying for the crime for the rest of their lives. Way over the top. Added jail time is down right vindictive. As for gun ownership, if their crime is not against people (making them dangerous to humans) they should still be aloud to have 'em.

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PostMon Jul 23, 2012 11:05 am 
5 years? That's a joke. When you poach, you should lose your hunting license forever. A poacher doesn't stop poaching. He will continue to do it. up.gif up.gif up.gif

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PostMon Jul 23, 2012 11:24 am 
RickS wrote:
5 years? That's a joke. When you poach, you should lose your hunting license forever. A poacher doesn't stop poaching. He will continue to do it. up.gif up.gif up.gif
I will agree with this. But I think the state wants to sell them licenses again in the future. Also, from what I've read the really bad poachers are going to do it again regardless of a license.

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PostMon Jul 23, 2012 11:33 am 
They could make them pay double/triple for every hunting license they will ever buy again -- on top of a hefty, but reasonable fine. Community service that fits the crime (something helping the wolves) in addition to all that would also be good.

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PostMon Jul 23, 2012 11:46 am 
RickS
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A poacher doesn't stop poaching. He will continue to do it. up.gif up.gif up.gif
emo statement, show us some historical facts that after someone has been busted poaching they continue. As far as penalty I like some of the Scandinavian models of monetary penalties based on your income. exp. if you make $ 10,000 a year and speed you pay $100bucks, if your a billionaire you'd pay $ 50,000 bucks for the same ticket. reduced prison costs and the money goes back to support social infrastructure. or in the wolf case use the money the offender pays to "manage" wolves. Why would we want to pay $ 50,000 yr to incarcerate somebody with tax dollars ( someone who is not likely to be a safety issue) so RickS can feel warm & fuzzy that the demon wolf killer goes to jail and stops completely contributing to society. he can't pay the fines (that could help the wolf) if he's sitting in jail. For the prison minded crowd he'll go to jail if he doesn't pay the fines. that should make you feel better. Humans learn better paying from the ass than with their ass. hockeygrin.gif

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PostMon Jul 23, 2012 11:51 am 
RickS wrote:
5 years? That's a joke. When you poach, you should lose your hunting license forever. A poacher doesn't stop poaching. He will continue to do it. up.gif up.gif up.gif
Like saying a person convicted of DWI person should lose their drivers lisc for the rest of their life. WDFW fines and pentalties fall in line with other states.

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treeswarper
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PostMon Jul 23, 2012 12:44 pm 
They are now convicted felons. They cannot legally possess firearms. Any hunting they do will have to be done with a bow. Success is hard to come by with a bow.

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