Forum Index > Trip Reports > Vesper Peak in Frankenstein Boots 06-17-2011
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rossb
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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 7:32 am 
I should have said "ski boots" instead of hiking boots. I haven't tried every pair of ski boots, but I haven't found any that feel as good as hiking boots. In the picture, it looks like at least one person was hiking in trail runners (or something similar).

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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 7:48 am 
In walk mode with the tongue removed, the Dynafit TLT5 walks like a light mountaineering boot. The fore-aft range is game changer. It skis fine too, although young gun backseat skiers won't like them. tongue.gif The Scarpa Maestrale walks and tours quite well too. Expect to see more uberhikeable AT boots hit the market in the next few seasons.

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rossb
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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 12:09 pm 
I think the irony of a boot like that is that it is great in the snow, but a bit hard and heavy in the woods. The same is true for a big hiking boot, for that matter. A lot depends on the mileage. If you end up going a mile or two, then I could see hiking in those boots. But if I had to go five miles before hitting snow (which I did a little while ago) then I would look for a different system, like this one, or maybe this one (which is still being developed).

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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 12:39 pm 
If the hike would be more than a mile or two then yeah, I'd carry the ski boots and wear something lighter on my feet too. When I skied in the Enchantments two years ago I carried my skis and ski boots on my back all the way to Colchuck Lake, wore light hiking boots for that ascent. For the record, I absolutely loathe carrying my ski boots. I'll wear them whenever I can. This trip didn't involve more than a couple miles of walking, probably not even that much and the trail is actually in pretty good shape most of the way, making it eminently doable in even my Dynafit Zzeuss which have almost no rocker in the sole.

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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 12:53 pm 
Excellent. Like to hear it. I'm not a good enough skier to ski it, but I would love to boot it (and I'll try to kick steps and glissade out of the way of the ski tracks). I was there last year, but the fog never cleared.

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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 1:06 pm 
rossb wrote:
A lot depends on the mileage. If you end up going a mile or two, then I could see hiking in those boots. But if I had to go five miles before hitting snow (which I did a little while ago) then I would look for a different system, like this one, or maybe this one (which is still being developed).
Also depends on how much and what sort of skiing you'll be doing. Those systems look like they get you on skis, but probably won't ski even as well as Koflachs in Silvretta bindings (which have really crappy downhill performance as it is). I almost went for some TLT5s this season, but am holding off in part to see how they fare for folks this season, and in part to see what may be coming out in a year or two. In the meantime, if I have significant hiking to do, I'll bring along lightweight trail runners and suffer with the boots on the pack for a bit Nice TR by the way. Last time I hiked Vesper, it had nearly as much cover as you had (basically skiable to the bottom of the hanging valley, but with a bit less overall snowpack) and I had really wished I'd dragged along the ski gear.

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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 1:41 pm 
No need to suffer. The only way to understand the hikeability of TLT5's is to walk a few miles in them. I've walked lots of miles in my TLT5's and I have never had a passing thought of trail shoes. They really are game changers in terms of traveling efficiently in the mountains. My previous boot was the Scarpa F3, which was the secondmost walkable AT boot (F1 was #1) until 1-1/2 years ago, but the TLT5 blows F3s out of the water for hikeability and weight savings, and they ski a bit better too. rossb, those systems would ski terribly. The TLT5 skis quite well, like a soft alpine boot, although they do require a bit o' finesse and, unlike Will's ZZeus, they get thrown around in some conditions, especially with uberlight skis. But it's fun to ski the lighter gear and, hey, 90%+ of ski touring time is spent going up or flat. The walkability of my TLT5's and my featherweight Trab skis have introduced tension within my group of ski touring friends when we talk about route selection. With my ultralight gear, a long approach with a ski carry is merely hiking with <8 extra pounds on my pack. But a guy carrying medium weight AT or (tele) skis and stiffer AT (or tele) boots adds 16 - 20 lbs. of payload with much more annoying swingweight.

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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 2:40 pm 
Cannot believe the destruction from the avy. This is one of my favorite areas. Seeing how much fun you guys had may finally get me back on my skis again. That would mean a gear investment...Stefan - The beard is looking better than ever...

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rossb
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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 2:42 pm 
BigSteve wrote:
rossb, those systems would ski terribly.
Actually, I've seen both ski quite well. The first with my own eyes, and the second on video.

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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 3:22 pm 
Those are two interesting meadow skipper rigs, but this was not a meadow skipper tour. (I've seen a video of a guy meadow skipping with the Altai ski.) The inventor of the first one acknowledges that a stiffer boot is indicated if one actually wants to make an angulated turn. I've spent a bit o' time over the past 35 years Nordic skiing, so I know all about making turns with floppy footwear. Re the Altai, a ski with a permanent 1/2-length full width skin cannot properly carve in most conditions; the binding, a 75mm Nordic 3-pin, has limitations over modern AT bindings; and that short of a ski will tip dive in many conditions. One would have to be nuts to ski either rig down Headlee Pass in the conditions we had the past two weekends. eek.gif ETA: My rig weighs no more, and perhaps less, than those two rigs. Don't get me wrong. Meadow skipping ski rigs are the right tool for some places. seattlehikertoo, gimme a shout and I'll help you get geared up up.gif We could another aerobic freak out in front setting track on those big powder days.

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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 4:21 pm 
I agree that I wouldn't ski Headlee pass with that gear, but as I said, I wouldn't ski Headlee pass. Like I said, I've seen the first set of gear and I've seen it work. As the author said, it is nothing like heavy telemark gear, but better than any Nordic gear he has used (meaning better than Nordic BC). A lot depends on the skier, and a lot depends on the ski (a surprising amount, based on my own experience with a similar system). There are a lot of guys who are really good skiers who could ski crazy stuff with gear like that. I can't, but just everywhere I go, people are surprised at how flimsy (and light) my gear is, yet I manage to ski the same thing they do. My point was not to suggest that someone ski up that mountain in Nordic gear, but I was curious as to how many people carry their ski boots versus walking in it. For this trip, it made no sense. But for a trip like Navajo pass (where I was a couple of weeks ago) it made perfect sense. We hiked for about five miles before hitting enough snow to ski on. It was wide open up above, and fairly open forest down below. I could have skied the upper part with just about anything, but the lower part would have been a challenge for me. The guy with the gear did both quite easily. Sorry about the thread drift. I would say though, that trying to guess how much control you have with a system is a lot like me guessing how comfortable those boots are. I can't tell unless I try them.

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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 4:54 pm 
Maybe this discussion should get moved to Gear biggrin.gif We did Navaho last year and I walked, skied and skinned every inch of it in my F3's while the guys with clunky AT boots donned hiking boots for the trail section. Now that I have TLT5's, I'd happily choose them for a 10 mile or longer trail approach. I'm tellin' ya, they hike like hiking boots. ETA: I would do Navaho (Peak, not just to the Pass) in light leather boot tele gear and skinny waxless skis, and have enough control on the downhill. But my lightest AT setup weighs less and hikes just as well (well, actually better because there's no duckbill), so why would I bother with tele gear? I see no advantage to Berwin's system in any conditions. As I mention above, my TLT5's hike much like light mountaineering boots, i.e., 90% as hikeable as my Scarpa Chamoz, which would be my hiking boot of choice for an early season trip like Vesper. (There is some flex at the ball of foot of the TLT5 -- just the right amount for skinning and mountain travel, IMO). TLT5 in men's size 10 weighs less than 2-1/2 pounds, which is less than many hiking boots and less than all tele boots. Berwin's bindings weigh 2-1/2 times Dynafit Speeds (which were on my rig on Vesper), so Dynafit wins the weight contest by a knockout. The Altai is a sliding snowshoe concept, which can also be achieved with a light short ski (e.g. Icelantic Scout) and skins, but it's really apples vs. oranges.

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rossb
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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 9:16 pm 
Yeah, we are way off topic now. It doesn't bother me if it doesn't bother you. smile.gif Ah, how cool that you are familiar with Navajo. I might have guessed. It makes explaining things much easier. Well, I'll just have to try those boots some time. I think I remember reading about those (or something similar) but not paying attention. I remember boots making tremendous strides with regards to weight. It is the comfort part (especially on the trail) that is really something. To think you would hike ten miles in them without worrying about it is fantastic. I wouldn't guess that just by looking at them. When I see them, I remember why I moved from Alpine skiing into Nordic skiing: foot comfort. Yes, I lost a lot of control, but it was really nice to have happy feet all day. My feet sit in very light, soft Nordic boots. Those look like they add just a bit of weight and discomfort but get back an enormous amount of control (of course) over lightweight Nordic gear. Amazing. Regarding universal bindings: In my opinion, the best ones are the custom ones shown in that article. Those started with Berwin, but took it way further. A bunch of stuff was added to provide for a better stride (while going flat or uphill) plus a lot more control (when going downhill). I'm sure Paul could have skied Navajo that day with the bindings (on Atomic Chugach) we just decided to call it an early day (the weather was mediocre). They are quite heavy though (but pretty cool looking). I've been in contact with the Altai ski folks with regards to their universal bindings. Since Paul and I spent a lot of time on this, we have our opinions (born out by experience). Personally, I don't think you can make a universal binding that works well without adding a hinge (or something like it). Otherwise it will be too stiff for striding, or too loose for skiing downhill. But I could go on and on about universal bindings. I agree with you as far as the permanent skin is concerned as well. I mentioned it to them, and they said they might come out with a waxless version. I would prefer that, and others have said the same thing. There has been much discussion about these skis on this blog. I agree that with the Skiboard market, there are plenty of skis like this. Most of them are designed to just do down, though, so they don't have much (if any) camber. I experimented with a pair of first generation snow blades. They were very cheap, but didn't perform well. Actually, to be fair, I was able to carve up a storm going downhill (I think I could have done something like Headlee -- I used to be a pretty good alpine skier and these were really easy to carve) but they were terrible on the flats. These skis were designed from the beginning for going up, down, and side to side. Based on everything I've seen, they do a really good job (with the caveat regarding the permanent skin). If I paired them with the boots you have, I might have the best of all worlds. Of course, the other reason I moved from Alpine to Nordic skiing was cost. Those boots remind me that it is a different world indeed. smile.gif

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PostTue Jun 28, 2011 9:38 pm 
yeah, those boots are pricey. Scarpa counterpunched with the Maestrale, which is less expensive and a good hiker, thought nothing like the TLT5. Some other uberhikeable AT boots will likely hit the market in the next couple years. Tech (Dynafit) bindings are light, strong, sturdy, elegant, efficient, very skiable and very tourable, kick ass on everything else for efficiently getting around in the mountains. Yes, waxless. Word is that Voile is coming out with a 95mm waisted light waxless ski with a rocker tip. Rossi has a shortish 90 waxless ski. Others on the way. The Altai binding looks like a 75mm Nordic Norm binding to me. It's a snowblade metamorphosed into a sliding snow shoe. Fine for some uses, e.g., setting traps wink.gif but it won't offer the travel advantages of skiing in spring and early summer conditions when snowcups, avy debris and snowblades collide

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rossb
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PostWed Jun 29, 2011 8:12 am 
The Altai is designed to work with several bindings, and switch between them easily. I only know this because the guy whose blog I mentioned (Dave) had been using the universal bindings, then switched to ski boots for a harder trip. I asked him about it, and he said it really easy to switch (you can see my question and his answer below). I agree that snowcups can be a problem with a short ski. I ran across that with my snow blades (which are even shorter). However, it is nice to have a short ski, just because it is more maneuverable, and has a very tight turning radius. Its a tradeoff. Regarding boot prices: The price doesn't surprise me, and I would expect similar boots to hit the market and drop the price a bit in the next few years. I don't think they will ever get too cheap, though; it is just the price for great gear of this type. I also jumped the gun on this whole discussion. Dave is going to do a formal review of those skis for backpackinglight.com. I was planning on commenting there, as well as here (here meaning nwhikers, not this trip report).

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