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Schroder
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Joined: 26 Oct 2007
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Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
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 Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:03 am |
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I think the end of the second article sums it up pretty nicely
| Quote: | | “It’s a non-starter for us,” IMBA president Mike Van Abel says. “We’ve certainly looked at Ted Stroll’s legal opinion that Congress never intended to ban bikes, and we think there’s merit in that.
“However, the reality today being what it is politically, if we were to devote every ounce of energy we had to furthering that argument, we would be politically trounced. It’s just not a reality.” |
One issue that's come up in the past was wheeled litters for rescues - they weren't allowed.
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kleet
meat tornado
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
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Location: O no they dih ent |
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kleet
meat tornado
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Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:24 am |
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| Quark wrote: | | The issue is that bicycles are mechanized contraptions, and mechanized widgets are prohibited in Wilderness except for necessary maintenance. |
Interesting though, that the second article linked quotes a member of the committee that drafted the legislation who says it was not their intent to ban bicycles, and bikes were allowed for the first 13 years of the Wilderness Act's existence. But I think that Schroder's quote from the article above is the reality.
A fuxk, why do I not give one?
A fuxk, why do I not give one?
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33teeth
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33teeth
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Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:32 am |
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Water pumps are mechanized contraptions. Climbing gear has many mechanized contraptions. Stoves are mechanized contraptions...
But Schroder nailed it.
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:39 am |
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The most dangerous incidents I've ever encountered with respect to other user groups have all been bicycle related. Horses at foot pace have never been a problem. I've been nearly run over by bikes three times, all people traveling downhill.
There are plenty of places for them to ride and I have zero issues with them in multiple use areas. In foot speed zones, keep them out.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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33teeth
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33teeth
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Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:50 am |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | There are plenty of places for them to ride |
If you're talking about public land in Western Washington then I think that's a tough argument to support. Unless you think that "plenty" means not very many.
Most access is at the whim of private land owners.
At least there is some progress in the Mt. Baker Snoqualmie National Forest...
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
Joined: 15 May 2003
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
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Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:20 am |
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| 33teeth wrote: | | Water pumps are mechanized contraptions. Climbing gear has many mechanized contraptions. Stoves are mechanized contraptions... |
 That sounds like some straw-grasping, ridiculous, over-the-top argument that I'd make, if were to argue for mechanized contraptions in Wilderness. For that matter, Bic lighters are mechanized, too.
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:24 am |
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| 33teeth wrote: | | MtnGoat wrote: | | There are plenty of places for them to ride |
If you're talking about public land in Western Washington then I think that's a tough argument to support. Unless you think that "plenty" means not very many.
Most access is at the whim of private land owners.
At least there is some progress in the Mt. Baker Snoqualmie National Forest... |
As far as I know all roads are open to riding and that makes for a huge network, especially with the crazy number of bermed roads now where the car vs bike thing is moot.
As for the 'whim' of private lands owners, well that's an interesting way to put it.
The funny thing here is I am so often accused of all manner of nefarious schemings and motives against nature and 'society', and yet on this topic I agree with the no mechanized travel in wilderness folks.
It didn't surprise me however to see one letter writer proposing that all travel in wilderness be banned except for bike trails only.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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33teeth
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33teeth
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Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:37 am |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | As far as I know all roads are open to riding |
About as much fun to ride on as they are to hike on.
| MtnGoat wrote: | | As for the 'whim' of private lands owners, well that's an interesting way to put it. |
Why is that an interesting way to put it? Land owners can (and do) decide to shut off access or destroy trails.
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joker
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joker
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Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:47 am |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | The funny thing here is I am so often accused of all manner of nefarious schemings and motives against nature and 'society', and yet on this topic I agree with the no mechanized travel in wilderness folks. |
Supporting use of force to ensure that a small minority of society doesn't need to be hassled by the bikes, eh? 
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:52 am |
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33, the problem is that the focus of bikes on trails is speed...if you wanted to be there for the trails and not have the speed or be covering those crazy distances in a short time, you'd be walking.
In any case it appears my assertion was not in error, there are plenty of places in W Wa to ride, you just don't want to ride there. There are miles and miles and miles of roads going high low and every which way...the closed ones are often even more oddball and remote.
Land owners can and do decide to shut off access or destroy trails, yes...I liked the 'whim' part as if they're just capricious. I see first hand on a regular basis what bike use has done to private land in the Gorge, it is not good. Some users harass stock and pets, intrude right into people's yards, and think that the conditional use of a trail means unconditional use of the entire property. Once the trails get in place the other problems start. Even the local cyclists organizations are well aware of this.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:53 am |
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| joker wrote: | | MtnGoat wrote: | | The funny thing here is I am so often accused of all manner of nefarious schemings and motives against nature and 'society', and yet on this topic I agree with the no mechanized travel in wilderness folks. |
Supporting use of force to ensure that a small minority of society doesn't need to be hassled by the bikes, eh? |
yup. i'm a socialist.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Altitude Junkie
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Joined: 25 Jul 2010
Posts: 621 | TRs | Pics
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| Token Civilian wrote: | | Duthie: Maintained constantly by the MTB club, yet it's muddy and rutty.
Bikes don't cause damage? - Duthie falsifies that belief.
Malachai - your comment about "competent" is the key. As with any user group, be they hikers, horsemen or bikers, the "competent" ones (as in following LNT practices, shoveling their horse sh*t off the trail, camping in hard sites, washing away from water sources, etc , for example) are sadly too uncommon.
I love to hike. I also love me some sweet, sweet single track (Trek 6700 hard tail that handles like a dream on winding, twisting trail...mmmmm, single track). But the last thing I want when I hike is to be run down by a biker tear @$$ing down the trail, alternately silent so I get squashed as they come around a blind corner, or squealing brakes I can hear from a mile away, depending on their maintenance - either way they ruin the experience for other users. The flashing of typically gaudy colors through pristine scenery at unnatural speed also ruins the experience.
Nope.....bikes stay on designated bike trails. There's plenty out there outside of Wilderness. If bikes are allowed into Wilderness, it'll destroy it for the vast majority of hikers. Yet another lowering of the bar.
And BIKERS aren't prohibited from Wilderness - just their bikes. Bikers (the people) are free to hike or ride a horse back into Wilderness any time. Just leave your bikes at home. |
My god, this is a fabulous post. Applause, applause! 
I've been doing every single hikable route in Forest Park this year just for giggles and there is a gaping chasm of difference between the trails that are open to biking and those that are not. One spot in particular is so irreparably destroyed that the mountain bikers, themselves, no longer take it. No, they simply moved to the left of it and gouged another wound in the hill, making themselves a new illegal trail. When that one displeases them, they'll move again and create another. You can already see a third route getting pounded down by new ruts. I literally cried when I saw it.
Feeling nostalgic, I explored online and found current pics of a few trails I used to frequent in Colorado. They are unrecognizable. Widened, eroded, pitted, and even dug out to create jumping birms, many have been permanently closed to the public in an attempt to allow nature to recoup her losses. The photo captions all lament the fact that mountain bikers have recently discovered the trails and laid waste to them.
It doesn't matter if 99.9% of the mountain bikers out there behave perfectly. It only takes a few to do long lasting, painful, expensive damage. And nobody should have to clean up somebody else's mess. Best defense is a good offense: tight restrictions. 
AJ
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:19 pm |
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The fact is that bikes cause more and worse damage to trails and terrain than feet.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Altitude Junkie
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | The fact is that bikes cause more and worse damage to trails and terrain than feet. |
Indeedy. And how. 
AJ
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Token Civilian
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Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 590 | TRs | Pics
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| 33teeth wrote: | | Water pumps are mechanized contraptions. Climbing gear has many mechanized contraptions. Stoves are mechanized contraptions... |
It's MECHANIZED TRANSPORT , not mechanized contraptions - a cam doesn't transport me and neither does the pump part of the water filter, nor the valve on my pressurized gas stove.
From the 2nd linked article, it quotes the act, to wit:
“no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft (and) no other form of mechanical transport.”
Note that horse drawn wagons are prohibited in Wilderness. The wheel is one of the simple machines (hence a wagon is mechanized conveyance). That a horse drawn wagon is powered by beast is irrelevant - the plain language says mechanical transport, regardless of ultimate power source.
The argument that Congress didn't intend to ban bikes is BS based on the plain language of the act. Mechanical transport is mechanical transport, period. No amount of sophistry will argue away the fact that bicycle is "mechanical transport" (and, by the way, so is a horse drawn wagon). If Congress didn't intend to ban all forms of mechanical transport, they wouldn't have said "mechanical transport".
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