[Bedivere]

Whoo-hoo! Let the internet blustering begin! (We gotta do something for entertainment around here at this time of year...) My purpose in starting this thread is to ask the opinions of those of you who are less fond of dogs and really get your hackles up when you see one off-leash what you would think of a dog that was off-leash yet stayed right next to it's master and responded to his voice commands as if he was on a leash. I've been working very hard with Jack on off-leash control. I think of him as being on a "mental leash." We are working hardest on the "heel" command which means that he walks right next to me, matches my pace, and sits whenever we come to a stop. I have also taught him what "get behind me" means - he has to walk along behind me and not try to pass or get next to me. He's good at that one. A harder thing that I'm not having a lot of success with yet is "stay near me" where he's allowed to roam out about 15' or so but no further. That's a tricky one because it's very hard to stop him from going further without calling him all the way back to me. So what would you think if you were hiking somewhere like Mt. Si or Cougar Mt. and you came across someone who's dog was not on a leash but stayed close to them, responded to their voice commands and sat next to them whenever they pulled off the trail to let others pass. Other than the actual physical connection of leash to dog, there is no difference here. Does the lack of that physical connection make you uncomfortable? Do you worry that the dog could act unexpectedly however well the owner thinks it's trained? Does the apparent flaunting of the rules irk you? I'm not going to argue about this or advocate for breaking the rules, just curious what people have to say. The vast majority of my hiking with Jack is done away from crowded trails where leashes are required so it's not really an issue for me, but I did hike up Mt. Si yesterday (first time in 3 years) and it's just so much easier not to have to deal with a leash.

[onemoremile]

I think it is a weird rule because if you are on the trail with dogs while on horseback or hunting, it is not required. But I don't know too many horsemen or hunters using bully breed type dogs. I personally don't care as long as the dog isn't aggressive. Dogs are cool, unless they are wanting to bite me. Edit: For the question about lack of physical contact being bothersome, I know it is dog profiling, but dogs like labs, beagles, shaggy dogs don't seem to bug me even if the owner is not in sight. A dog like a rottweiler, dobie, or most of all pitt bull and I want a capable owner and a strong chain. I don't mind being flamed for this, just my reaction.

[Mike Collins]

If the rules are to have your dog on a leash then please keep your dog on a leash. If your dog responds to voice command that is nice but your dog is also hard wired for a chase. If it sees a deer or other animal it will chase that animal and disregard your input. Civilized people live by rules and laws. That is what makes us civil. I am offended by dog owners who disregard those rules.

[Bedivere]

[Maria]

While I understand where you are coming from, I, as a hiker coming up the trail, have no way of knowing whether your dog is actually going to stay under your control. Realistically, I'm always happy when a dog is under firm owner control, whether on or off leash, but I don't feel secure until after I've passed unless it is on leash and kept out of reach of me unless I indicate a willingness/desire to say hello/pet/etc. That's just me.

[Bedivere]

[boot up]

Often the official rules say leash OR voice command.(rules may vary, check carefully) I am NOT seeing the latter exception stated as often in the rules in recent times, I assume because many people consider "voice command trained" to be dogs that run back and forth, up and down the trail, knocking people over, and after a few dozen calls by their owners, in the unlikely event the owner even TRIES to call them, the dog gets bored enough to come back to their general area. I think its getting worse instead of better. I have had two incidents in recent times of off leash dogs growling at me...one on the verge of receiving some hiking stick aversion therapy from me, and thats highly unusual for me when the dog isn't on home ground. (I was bitten maybe a half dozen times back when I did road biking) Now if someone is coming towards me with a dog, off OR on leash, and is demonstrating that the dog is well trained, or at least in a serious process of being trained, I will make a point to compliment the owner. I would rather confront a well trained dog OFF leash, than an out of control dog ON leash. but thats just me....

[Mike Collins]

[Slugman]

I would buy the "rules are rules" argument if it wasn't complete nonsense. No one else mindlessly follows stupid rules that are also completely unfair. Are we a nation of people doing exactly 60 mph on freeways with that speed limit? No, we are not. Are we a state with plenty of places on the west side of the Cascades where a person can hike with their dog off leash? No, we are not. Dog owners get screwed on every rule, all the time, except in eastern Washington. Horses get "grandfathered in" to places, but do dog owners? The first expeditions to the Olympics had dogs, and they weren't leashed. People have been hiking with off-leash dogs for 10,000 years. But is there any "grandfathering"? No, of course not. So I guess we are not in any way a "civilized" society, if civilized means we blindly accept any rule no matter how ridiculous and unfair. Anyone who says my dog will chase a deer and ignore my commands is either ignorant or dishonest, one or the other. I am offended by that. They obviously know nothing about dogs, if they think such a blanket statement has any validity. I leash my dog when anyone is around who might object, or if I think I might get a ticket, or if I think it's wise under the circumstances, like maybe near a cliff or something. So, based on the original post in this thread, that scenario could never happen to me, because if I was at Mt. Si or Cougar mtn, etc, my dog would be leashed, or left home. In the Pasayten this year, I encountered many off-leash dogs (legal there), and they were all well-behaved and friendly. I encountered two leashed dogs, and they were vicious, rowdy, out of control, and they tried to attack my dog as we passed. The owners were seemingly oblivious, apparently thinking that leashing was the be-all, end-all of dog control. Leashing doesn't stop aggression on a narrow trial, it doesn't stop barking, or hole-digging, nor does it scoop poop. The theory that leashing is good, not leashing is bad, is ridiculous. Training and supervising a dog is the only way to keep your dog from ruining someone else's hike. If a leash is needed for that, then use one. PS to Chainsaw: I would suggest you don't do what you mentioned in the first post, going to popular trails without using a leash. I agree with the person who said they don't know your dog is so well trained. Even when my dog is off leash, I always have a leash close at hand, even when being off leash is legal. So I would make my dog sit, while off the trail, and attach the leash, then after the other person/dog is gone, let her off, and continue. I understand some people don't like dogs, or are afraid of dogs, or would get angry at seeing an off-leash dog, and I don't want to be the cause of them being unhappy. It's a politeness thing, not a "rule-following" thing, to me.

[tigermn]

Until I got a dog 8 years ago I was very uncomfortable around dogs in general. Due to 1 not growing up with pets and 2, a couple of bad experiences as a kid being chased by dogs. As a hiker, seeing an off leash dog would have made me a lot more uncomfortable 8 or more years ago than it would now. Now that I have owned a dog for 8 years I don't have this generaldegree of being uncomfortable around dogs. Having said that I get more nervous seeing just a dog coming towards me, obviously far enough ahead of it's owner that I can't see the owner especially if it is one of the so called stereotyped potentially vicious dogs of the Shepard, Doberman, Pit Bull variety etc. If it is near the owner and just walking along minding it's own business my blood pressure stays pretty normal. My pet peeves with off leash dogs (whether legal or not), is the dogs that run back and forth ahead of it's owners often running past you then turning around and running back down past you again. I've solved this by just stopping and letting them go by since they were probably slowly catching up to me anyway. On a narrow snowy trail on Mt. Si once I almost got run over by a dog doing this. No real place to step aside.

[Bedivere]

Slugman - Given the experiences we've all had with dogs that are oblivious to their owner's commands, I'm not sure it's unfair or even ignorant to say that one is fearful that the dog will ignore the owner. Happens all the time as you well know, probably the majority of the time. While it may not be true in a specific case (yours or, most of the time, mine), to assume otherwise is the safe bet when you don't know the dog or its owner. As to leashes and aggression - in many cases putting a dog on a leash can make it aggressive. This was certainly the case with my old Elkhound. He basically ignored people and other dogs (and me) when he was off the leash, but you put that leash on him and all of a sudden he wanted to brawl with every other dog we came across. fortunately I was able to get him to the point where a stern "leave it" as we approached other dogs would get him to toe the line, but it was always right under the surface that he wanted to get it on with the other dogs. As a rule he ignored humans unless they had food. The thinking on this is that putting on the leash makes the dog over-protective of you, or makes it feel hampered in some way, making it fearful which leads to aggression. I think leash laws are probably along the lines of protecting people and making them feel more comfortable on those crowded trails. While a leashed dog might still be "out of control", at least it's not able to run up to you and steal your sandwich or jump up on you with muddy paws or scare your toddler while the owner is off somewhere else. In cases where wildlife is a concern, dogs are banned altogether such as in the Enchantments and National Parks. I always have a leash with me when I'm out with Jack. Just makes sense, there may be unexpected circumstances that require it, but if we're in an area where it's not required I'm not going to put it on him unless I perceive a real reason to do so. Pretty much those reasons are limited to cornices when out in the winter (he doesn't understand them and will walk out onto them) or other people nearby that I don't want him disturbing.

[Ranger Smith]

[tigermn]

[Hulksmash]

First let it be known i do not hate dogs. I know i'm probably going to get some flack for this. In many, many, many years of hiking i can only think of four dogs off the top of my head, that were well trained and under control. One is Daisy...kudos to Slugman. The other two belong to Sabahsboy. The fourth was a St Benard at Big Four, not once did the owner have to repeat any command. I think the problem is, the vast majority of folks with dogs either are not honest with them selves regarding how well they trained there dog, or they just don't care. I'm not amused when fido jumps and slobbers all over me just trying to say Hi.

[tigermn]