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Snowbrushy Member
Joined: 23 Jul 2003 Posts: 6670 | TRs | Pics Location: South Sound |
This is about the beginnings of the Forest Service and what it was like to be a Ranger in the early days. These were the men who helped to build many of the original trails.
Where did you live?
"My first headquarters was an old guard cabin which hadn't been used since the preceding fall, and in the meantime a family of skunks had made a home under the floor. We got along fine together, but finally the skunks couldn't stand it and moved out. I felt real lonesome for some time until a pack rat showed up and filled in the niche in my existence."
http://www.idahoforests.org/fires.htm
This railroad line is said to be responsible for the fire: Chicago, Milwaukee and Puget Sound Railroad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago,_Milwaukee_and_Puget_Sound_Railway
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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HitTheTrail Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 5452 | TRs | Pics Location: 509 |
There is a rather recent book out on that called "The Big Burn" by Timothy Egan. It gives a good detailed description of the fire with a lot of interesting human stories. But, about half the book is about how Gifford Pinchot got the FS started. It's a good read. A presentation on the fire is being held this weekend at the Wenatchee Museum.
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Snowbrushy Member
Joined: 23 Jul 2003 Posts: 6670 | TRs | Pics Location: South Sound |
Thanks for the heads up.
I've heard that the Forest Service can draft civilians on the spot to fight forest fires.
"Every able-bodied man fought the fire. Most were Idaho loggers, miners from Butte, Montana, and skid row bums brought in on trains from Spokane."
Imagine that you're innocently sitting on a downtown sidewalk sipping on a bottle of wine when a green truck pulls up and the uniformed men take you away to fight a war in the woods. What a way to start the day!
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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509 Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 998 | TRs | Pics Location: 509 |
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509
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Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:23 am
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If you want a history of the Forest Service and its response to fire fighting.
Start with Egan's book, then read Young Men and Fire and finish with the 30-mile book.
I did read one book about the Big Sur fires about the Zen Buduists. They have some interesting observations about current fire policies.
Unfortunately, they did not read the previous three books. The good news is they survived.
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wolffie Member
Joined: 14 Jul 2008 Posts: 2693 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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wolffie
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Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:30 pm
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Wasn't regulation of sheep overgrazing a large motivation for the origin of USFS? That's an impression I got from C.E. Rusk, Tales of a Western Mountaineer, and Chester Marler, East of the Divide. Interesting to learn that so many of my favorite trails are old sheep-herding routes. Rusk's biography is especially recommended -- late 19th/early 20th century -- he wrote that he always liked to climb Mt. Adams as early as possible so he could see the view before it was obscured by the smoke... from wildfires intentionally set by the newly-arrived Europeans!
Ivan Doig's English Creek (fiction) contains a vignette of early Forest Service life in Montana or Wyoming. Beckey's guide contains a funny quote from somebody's memoir about opening up a USFS guard station and battling the mice all summer.
Some people have better things to do with their lives than walking the dog. Some don't.
Some people have better things to do with their lives than walking the dog. Some don't.
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12798 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:49 pm
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for the real story:
see:
Breaking New Ground
© 1947 Gifford Pinchot
Harcourt, Brace, and Co., Inc., New York
and yes, you can be recruited to fight a wildfire if you are on National Forest Service lands. which is why you're supposed to be wearing a USDA-approved 10" fire boot out there.
(and no, I am not loaning out my first edition copy.)
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Kim Brown Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 6900 | TRs | Pics
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Bureau of Forestry first, then Forest Reserves; to administer logging and to guard the forest against rampant use of the public lands. But yeah there were lots of other reasons, too; some right off the bat, some added later, and some localized purposes, no doubt.
The east was over-logged and the US needed more timber. About the same time was the big land rush westward, and so private logging was moving westward. To stop the rampant logging of all the forests by the public, the government snapped up a bunch of land. It wasn't that they were going to preserve the forests, but that they wanted to oversee the logging process, and try (pardon the over-used word) a type of sustainable - logging, as it was being taught in Europe at the time.
Personnel were hired to survey the land and to patrol the forest - before Forest Service employees appeared, the public was using the land for grazing (sheep and cattle), logging, mining, even illegal homesteading.
Of course with any original purpose of the Forest Service, fire-fighting was involved, probably from Day One.
Gifford Pinchot NF history blurb
Other good books to read on the subject are Harold K. Steen, History of the USFS (dense, but interesting as hell).
The GPNF has a really nice history book of that forest in their forest service station shops (short, extremely interesting)
Also, the Pacific Northest Service Service Assocation has a nice publication, "We had an Objective in Mind," a collection of short vignettes and stories from USFS personnel from 1905 onward. (I just started reading it; so far, so cool).
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Kim Brown Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 6900 | TRs | Pics
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And another thing...anyone know? Gifford Pinchot wanted the Forest Reserves transferred from the Dept of Interior to USDA, and fought for it (didn't happen during his administration). But the book I read doesn't say why. Anyone know why? It really bothered Pinchot.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12798 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:31 pm
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because the Department of Agriculture was controlled by midwest senators from "farm" states like Indiana, Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, who were more concerned about corn and hogs than trees, and Pinchot guessed (correctly) that they would put up less resistance (and provide for less interference) than those "eastern" senators who had control of the Department of Interior.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12798 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:32 pm
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you gotta read that book and get Pinchot's side of it.
now... you.... I might loan this book to.... but I'm sure there's a copy at the Seattle Public Library.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Kim Brown Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 6900 | TRs | Pics
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So the Dept of Interior were of the "let's log it" mindset and Pinchot wanted to log more slowly (and sustainably [is that a word?] . The USDA reps (and farmers, pig ranchers, etc.) would put up little or no resistance to restrictions on timber, but DOI reps would resist restrictions. Did I interpret your post correctly?
And yet National Parks under DOI were (and are) managed to preserve.
I'll have to check out that book from the library post-haste - now that it's recommended, I'll have to fight people off with a bat to get it (but not an old growth one).
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12798 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:23 pm
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now you're going to make me go back and re-read it so I can be clear....
off the top of my head (as near as I can recall):
no.
Pinchot was on the "conservationist" side.
Muir was the "preservationist" without whom we would not have a Yosemite or Yellowstone.
Pinchot didn't want the "preservationist" constituency interfering with what he had in mind: "conservation".
you have to put yourself into the time:
the big money (and big power) at the time was in New England. what we now call "blue states". they were (for the most part) sympathetic and receptive to Muir's ideas of "preservation".
the only "forestry" at that time was in its infancy in Germany.
"logging" essentially was "cut it all and move on", which is how we got Longview, Washington: the Long-Bell Timber Company shaved all their real estate, abandoned it, took the money, and came out here and bought up all the dirt they could. that was standard practice.
look at the history of the Capitol State Forest: abandoned cut-over lands that nobody wanted.
Pinchot saw what was happening and figured there had to be a better way.
his idea was "sustainable forestry", where resource extraction would be an on-going thing and provide for a self-sustaining National Forest Service (although it had a different name at the time.)
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Kim Brown Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 6900 | TRs | Pics
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OK that's in line with what I read about Gifford Pinchot's goals. "Conservation" vs. "Preservation" are the key terms; thanks. I'll check out the book your recommended, as well as Timothy Egan's book. I'm probably the only one on the planet who hasn't read it (I haven't yet seen the movie, E.T. either, but that's a whole nother subject).
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12798 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:38 pm
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in a nutshell: conservation vs. preservation.
Pinchot believed we could have forests forever, and timber harvest forever.
Grazing was a big deal, and that could also have been done on a sustainable basis.
Mining: well, you've only got a finite amount of resource there.
I never saw "ET" either. Did I miss out on something?
I figure attending the first performance of the Tokyo Noh Ensemble outside Japan should more than make up for my missing a kid's movie about an imaginary space alien.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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wolffie Member
Joined: 14 Jul 2008 Posts: 2693 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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wolffie
Member
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Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:27 pm
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When my friend's parents flew in from Checkoslovakia to visit, they flew in low over the Gifford-Pinchot National Forest. What they were talking about right after landing: "It's just like the Nazis! First thing they did after they invaded our country, they cut all the trees down!"
Possibly apocryphal anecdote about President Carter flying by helicopter to view the Mt. St. Helens eruption devastation, looking out at the barren landscape, muttering "...terrible....terrible..." while his handlers inform him, "No, sir, ...we're not there yet."
Yup, they serviced that forest, all right.
Some people have better things to do with their lives than walking the dog. Some don't.
Some people have better things to do with their lives than walking the dog. Some don't.
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