| Previous :: Next Topic |
| Author |
Message |
reststep
Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 4757 | TRs | Pics
|
|
reststep
Member
|
 Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:57 pm |
|
|
It looks like they were appealing a lower court decision.
Maybe the lower court case would have some clarification.
"The mountains are calling and I must go." - John Muir
"The mountains are calling and I must go." - John Muir
|
| Back to top |
  
|
|
vibramhead
Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 183 | TRs | Pics
Location: Olympic Peninsula |
| Slugman wrote: | | That's not what it says, at all, to me. You must first be parked in an un-designated area, or along a road, for the whole thing to apply, as you own quote shows. And that is also, 100% clearly, the actual case in hand that was decided. It was only the people parked along the side of the road that got relief. If the entire NW Forest pass was invalidated, wouldn't they have said that? When you say "So, if all you're doing is parking in a designated parking area at a trailhead, and you're not using the amenities there, FS can't charge a fee." I see no support for that in the actual opinion. They never say that you must use the services if you are in a designated parking area, only that they must exist. The "using" part applies to those not parked in designated sites. That's what the entire case is about, as the link states very specifically. |
Slugman, I respectfully disagree. The court said at p. 9:
"The Forest Service is prohibited from charging an amenity fee '[s]olely for parking.' 16 U.S.C. § 6802(d)(1)(A). There is nothing ambiguous about that text. If all a visitor does is park, and he is charged a fee, that fee is imposed '[s]olely for parking.'"
The court did not limit this holding to parking in undesignated areas. The statute prohibits charging a fee solely for parking at any parking area, designated or not. At p. 11, the court said: "Moreover, the REA clearly contemplates that individuals can go to a place offering facilities and services without using the facilities and services and without paying a fee." The court made it clear that, to be subject to a fee, a person must actually use the facilities and services, other than parking, that are listed as required amenities: "the Forest Service’s fee structure at the Mount Lemmon HIRA does not comport with the REA’s express prohibition on charging fees for parking and then hiking through the HIRA without using the facilities and services, camping in undeveloped areas, or picnicking on roads or trailsides." At p. 12, the court stated: "The statute thus distinguishes between merely recreating in an area and actually using an area’s amenities.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16874 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
|
Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:08 pm |
|
|
Sorry, you truncated your own quote. It says “[s]olely for parking, undesignated parking, or picnicking along roads or trailsides”;
A parking lot is not "along a road". You cannot cut off the "along roads..." without changing the meaning. Plus you never addressed the fact that the whole case was about people parking along the side of the road to escape the fee. And according to snowbrushy, and I am inclined to agree, the fee in question isn't even the NW Forest pass fee, but an additional fee.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Snowbrushy
Member
Joined: 23 Jul 2003
Posts: 6670 | TRs | Pics
Location: South Sound |
Along roads in FS campgrounds works fine.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dayhike Mike
Bad MFKer
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Posts: 10955 | TRs | Pics
Location: Going to Tukwila |
| silence wrote: | | Yana wrote: | | If proceeds from the NWFP actually went toward trail maintenance, I would be more than happy to make the monetary contribution. |
do you know that for a fact? |
I do.
I know that Yana would be more than happy to make the monetary contribution if the proceeds from the NW Forest Pass actually went toward trail maintenance.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke
"Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment." -Solomon Short
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke
"Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment." -Solomon Short
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yana
Hater
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 4212 | TRs | Pics
Location: Out Hating |
|
Yana
Hater
|
Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:27 pm |
|
|
PLAY SAFE! SKI ONLY IN CLOCKWISE DIRECTION! LET'S ALL HAVE FUN TOGETHER!
PLAY SAFE! SKI ONLY IN CLOCKWISE DIRECTION! LET'S ALL HAVE FUN TOGETHER!
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimmymac
Zip Lock Bagger
Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3704 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lake Wittenmyer, WA |
|
jimmymac
Zip Lock Bagger
|
Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:21 pm |
|
|
| Slugman wrote: | I've never heard of that. So, it's not a parking fee, or a camping fee? And you do, or you don't, need a NW Forest pass as well? 
OK, I get that, I think. A FS campground charges a fee for the use of the facilities on a day-use basis, but if you just use it for parking to go hiking, you don't have to pay the extra $5? But would you still need the pass? Interesting. |
Mid week, I parked in a $5 day use parking area at the empty Middle Forked CG and hung my annual Forest Pass. I then departed on my bike for a MFk day use excursion beyond the Taylor River gate. When I returned I found that the host had written me up.
"Profound serenity is the product of unfaltering Trust and heightened vulnerability."
"Profound serenity is the product of unfaltering Trust and heightened vulnerability."
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vibramhead
Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 183 | TRs | Pics
Location: Olympic Peninsula |
| Slugman wrote: | | Sorry, you truncated your own quote. It says “[s]olely for parking, undesignated parking, or picnicking along roads or trailsides”;
A parking lot is not "along a road". You cannot cut off the "along roads..." without changing the meaning. Plus you never addressed the fact that the whole case was about people parking along the side of the road to escape the fee. And according to snowbrushy, and I am inclined to agree, the fee in question isn't even the NW Forest pass fee, but an additional fee. |
No, actually, I quoted directly from the court's opinion at p. 9. The court omitted "along roads" from its quotation of the statute in that passage, because that phrase only modifies "picnicking." The court made it clear that it views that REA as barring FS from charging for parking anywhere, unless one is actually using one of the other amenities. The case was not, in fact, just about people who park along roads. As the opinion states, it was brought by visitors who argued that "the Forest Service was exceeding the scope of its authority under the REA by charging fees to those who drive to Mount Lemmon, park their cars, then picnic, hike, or camp in nearby undeveloped areas." And the court ruled that "if a visitor does nothing other than park, the fee is solely for parking and is therefore plainly prohibited by the REA."
It's true that the fee in question wasn't the NW Forest Pass. It was the Coronado NF's version of the NW Forest Pass. But both are imposed under the same statute, so both are subject to the Ninth Circuit's ruling that the REA prohibits charging a fee to those who park and hike without using other amenities.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16874 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
|
Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:51 pm |
|
|
Great, then the NW forest pass no longer exists.  We'll see.
I think this ruling is about what happened to jimmymac. Not about the parking pass. But I am far from certain, and this may indeed be the end of the forest pass in every form.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Malachai Constant
Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16098 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
This sounds too much like work to me, besides I'm an old fart now.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cascadeclimber
Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1427 | TRs | Pics
|
What a nice dose of sanity in the increasingly insane world of use-fees.
Dear people who dream such things up: I don't need, want, or to pay for stinky pit toilets, kiosks, questionably improved parking, water fountains, docents, turnstiles, massage therapists, gates, fences, switchbacks, 'new, improved' trails, or any other such nonsense at or around most trailheads.
Please don't justify a bigger budget, staff, or infrastructure in order to provide, justify, maintain, build, hire, document, or otherwise 'pretty up' these things.
In matters of wilderness, more of these things is most usually not an improvement.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HitTheTrail
Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 5462 | TRs | Pics
Location: 509 |
| Snowbrushy wrote: | | The day use fee's are on top of the pass. Usually it's $5.00 in FS campgrounds. |
It varies by campground and facilities available. For example at Silver Falls CG up the Entiat R. it is $12 per vehicle / per night plus $10 per extra vehicle per night. Campgrounds just up the road and just down the road are $10 per vehicle per night and $8/vehicle/night for extra vehicles.
Edit: Nason Ck CG at Lake Wenatchee is $17 for first vehicle and $11 for extra per night.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
touron
Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 10293 | TRs | Pics
Location: Plymouth Rock |
|
touron
Member
|
Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:42 pm |
|
|
Touron is a nougat of Arabic origin made with almonds and honey or sugar, without which it would just not be Christmas in Spain.
Touron is a nougat of Arabic origin made with almonds and honey or sugar, without which it would just not be Christmas in Spain.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vibramhead
Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 183 | TRs | Pics
Location: Olympic Peninsula |
| cascadeclimber wrote: | | massage therapists |
I agree regarding the other "amenities", but I'd definitely pony up $30/year if I could count on a massage therapist at the end of my hike.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Damian
Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2001
Posts: 3260 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Damian
Member
|
Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:17 pm |
|
|
| Malachai Constant wrote: | | This sounds too much like work to me, besides I'm an old fart now. |
 Here I was waiting for MC to chime in with his usual (and helpful) legal interpretation for the common man and all we get is this lame post.
Get busy and dig into this ya bum. You're getting as bad as Z!
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate NWHikers.net earns from qualifying purchases when you use our link(s). |
