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vibramhead
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 2:09 pm 
On Feb. 9, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled that the Forest Service couldn't charge a fee for simply parking at a trailhead and hiking. The Forest Service's authority to charge fees is limited by the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act, which prohibits charging fees to persons who simply park at a developed site without using any amenities, but only walk through it to hike trails. You can read the decision here: http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2012/02/09/10-16711.pdf The Forest Service may only charge a fee for use of sites that contain all of the following amenities: permanent toilet; permanent trash receptacle; developed parking; interpretive sign or kiosk; picnic table; and security services. But, if you're not using any of these amenities, and you're simply walking through, FS has no authority to charge you for parking there. The court rejected Forest Service's argument that it could charge a fee simply for making the amenities available, stating that the law "clearly contemplates that individuals can go to a place offering facilities and services without using the facilities and services and without paying a fee." The court also rejected Forest Service's argument that it could charge a fee for picnicking in undeveloped areas that are "in the vicinity" of developed sites. The case involved fees charged on the Coronado National Forest in Arizona, but the ruling applies to all national forests within the Ninth Circuit, which includes Arizona, California, Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Idaho & Montana. Consequently, it appears to me that, if all you're doing is parking at a trailhead, you don't need a Northwest Forest Pass. Just don't use the restroom, toss anything in the trash can, sit down at a picnic table, or read the interpretive signs.

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Yana
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 2:19 pm 
Given that the majority of USFS trailheads in Washington don't have trash receptacles, it would seem that requiring a NWFP is automatically "invalidated." Disclaimer: I haven't had time to read the actual decision you linked yet. I wonder what the fallout will actually be.

PLAY SAFE! SKI ONLY IN CLOCKWISE DIRECTION! LET'S ALL HAVE FUN TOGETHER!
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Hulksmash
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 2:26 pm 
Be careful what you wish for. There's always unintended consequences. I wonder what the definition of "security services" is? Why is the Trail it self not considered one of the amenities? Trails don't maintain them selves...there's lots of heavy labor involved.

"Bears couldn't care less about us....we smell bad and don't taste too good. Bugs on the other hand see us as vending machines." - WetDog Albuterol! it's the 11th essential
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Snowbrushy
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 2:37 pm 
vibramhead wrote:
The Forest Service's authority to charge fees is limited by the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act, which prohibits charging fees to persons who simply park at a developed site without using any amenities
Great that means that I can park at any empty site to eat lunch (or?) on road trips as long as I don't use the campfire deal. This is very good news for me and my old coleman stove. And for my stomach. Thankyou, Vibram.

Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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vibramhead
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 2:50 pm 
Quote:
Great that means that I can park at any empty site to eat lunch (or?) on road trips as long as I don't use the campfire deal. This is very good news for me and my old coleman stove.
Just don't put the old coleman stove on a picnic table.

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vibramhead
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 2:57 pm 
Quote:
Why is the Trail it self not considered one of the amenities? Trails don't maintain them selves...there's lots of heavy labor involved.
I agree that a trail is an amenity, and I certainly appreciate them. I wouldn't object to paying a fee to use them, if that's what the law provides for. But, as the court made clear, Congress has decided that trails are not one of the amenities that FS can charge for: "The Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (“REA”) prohibits the United States Forest Service from charging fees “[s]olely for parking, undesignated parking, or picnicking along roads or trailsides,” for “hiking through . . . without using the facilities and services,” and “[f]or camping at undeveloped sites . . . .”"

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Sundance Kid
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 2:59 pm 
This is good in some ways and not good in others. I wonder if this will end up applying to forests here in Utah evenutally?

Just where is it I can find beaver, bear, and other critters that are worth cash money when skint?
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Yana
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 3:03 pm 
Hulksmash wrote:
Trails don't maintain them selves...there's lots of heavy labor involved.
No, they certainly don't. If proceeds from the NWFP actually went toward trail maintenance, I would be more than happy to make the monetary contribution.

PLAY SAFE! SKI ONLY IN CLOCKWISE DIRECTION! LET'S ALL HAVE FUN TOGETHER!
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silence
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 3:11 pm 
Yana wrote:
If proceeds from the NWFP actually went toward trail maintenance, I would be more than happy to make the monetary contribution.
do you know that for a fact?

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Snowbrushy
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 3:17 pm 
vibramhead wrote:
Just don't put the old coleman stove on a picnic table.
I've met some FS campground hosts who charge a fee at day use sites and empty group sites. I tell them that I'm a temporary Squatter and then they really demand rent. I tell them that I'm just passing through and they think that I'm a vagrant. Now, I'll just point out that my Coleman stove and I are on the ground and that I'm just a basic Hobo who lives down on the ground with his coleman stove and not using the picnic table, and I have the 9th Circuit Court to back me up. And that I'm broke anyhoo.. smile.gif

Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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Bryan K
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 3:18 pm 
Seems like nowadays trails are being maintained by WTA more than the FS.

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tigermn
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 3:29 pm 
Well one of the key things was all of the below must be met. I suspect not many places that require a forest service pass meet all of the below. (A) that provides significant opportunities for outdoor recreation; (B) that has substantial Federal investments; (C) where fees can be efficiently collected; and (D) that contains all of the following amenities: (i) Designated developed parking. (ii) A permanent toilet facility. (iii) A permanent trash receptacle. (iv) Interpretive sign, exhibit, or kiosk. (v) Picnic tables. (vi) Security services. Well you hardly eve see a permanent trash receptacle at a forest service trailhead. People use them too much for dumping I think and they would have to empty them. huh.gif I kind of wonder what would qualify as security services. Could it be something as simple as a ranger driving by/checking the parking area once a day for all I know. Well we know someone drives by to write citations anyway lol.gif

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Slugman
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 3:32 pm 
This decision does not appear to me to be saying what some appear to think it says. It applies to people parking on the side of the road, not in designated parking areas, or for people walking through a fee area (or traveling through by other means). Parking in a designated area is not covered by this decision, as far as I can determine with a quick reading. So that if for example someone parks on the side of the road before a designated fee area, then walks though the area to hike, they cannot be charged. The info about amenities necessary is not actually from this decision, but is just a recapping of what the law already says.

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Sundance Kid
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 3:35 pm 
I'm not sure parking on the road vs. parking at the trailhead will necessarily keep your car safer one way or the other, so hey, I'm all for parking on the road and walking a few extra steps. Now, some roads that hang over ravines have no room for parking...

Just where is it I can find beaver, bear, and other critters that are worth cash money when skint?
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Yana
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PostTue Feb 21, 2012 3:48 pm 
silence wrote:
do you know that for a fact?
Does some of the funding go toward maintaining trails? Undoubtedly. However, a lot of it does not. From the USFS website on NW Forest Passes:
Quote:
We fund projects based on public feedback, which has told us that the priorities are: Maintaining Restrooms Maintaining Trails Improving Safety and Security
Maintaining restrooms is also number one on the more comprehensive list on that particular page. I don't know what this means in terms of actual percentages since I can't seem to find that info anywhere, but I'm not going to assume the majority goes to trail work just because I would like it to. From another document (found on several sites via google, including WTA... I can't seem to find what agency originated it, however).
Quote:
Where does the money go? Ninety-five percent (95%) of recreation fee revenue is retained locally at the district or forest to operate and maintain day use sites, boat launches, trailheads and other recreation facilities that are fee sites. A portion of the recreation fee revenue is used to fund volunteer efforts and is used as a match for grant funds.
That doesn't seem to place priority on funding trail work. In fact, you might miss it if you blink (though it is in there, in a vague way).

PLAY SAFE! SKI ONLY IN CLOCKWISE DIRECTION! LET'S ALL HAVE FUN TOGETHER!
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