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Obi Tony Kenobi
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Waterfall Crazy!
PostThu Mar 29, 2012 5:02 pm 
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If this sounds like a rant, well sorry but I have basically have had it with these extreme militant environmental groups. If it is not the Suiattle Road it is some other road they want to shut down. Of course we have all heard about the Green Mountain Lookout and today because of Wilderness Watch; a group of pathetic lawyers, a judge ordered the lookout remove.

WTA: Federal Judge Orders Rremoval of Green Mountain Lookout

Just because a helicopter was used to bring the lookout down? Because 25% of it is not original wood?

I can keep going, but it will just make me more angry  mad.gif

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Slugman
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Slower than ever
PostThu Mar 29, 2012 5:29 pm 
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mad.gif  irked.gif  crazy.gif  down.gif  down.gif

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"There is a pleasure in the pathless woods, There is a rapture on the lonely shore. There is society where none intrudes, By the deep sea, and music in its roar: I love not man the less, but nature more..."  Childe Harold
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Foist
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PostThu Mar 29, 2012 7:24 pm 
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I'm a lawyer, but I don't care about the legal case.  I could easily imagine that repairing a lookout could technically violate some stupid broadly written regulation.

What I want to know is what motivates these "Wilderness Watch" types.  I want to peer inside these people's dark souls.  What do they care about?  What could possibly motivate them to fund a non-profit organization and lawyers to have lookouts removed and destroyed?  What do they want wilderness for?  Do they ever go there?  Are any of those idiots here on nwhikers and care to explain?
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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Mar 29, 2012 7:29 pm 
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ditto.gif Hard to understand but zealots are capable of cold blooded murder also frown.gif

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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treeswarper
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Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostThu Mar 29, 2012 7:38 pm 
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Hey, they've virtually shut down the logging.  They now can work on other things....just as some people predicted.  No surprise for some of us.  Welcome to the group.   rolleyes.gif

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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be humanĖĖanimals and aliens are great possibilities
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Allison
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PostThu Mar 29, 2012 8:16 pm 
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They can't use a helicopter and they can't use horses,  so it stays.

Now there is nothing stopping anyone from doing a little renegade maintenance.

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cascadeclimber
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PostThu Mar 29, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Foist wrote:
Do they ever go there?  Are any of those idiots here on nwhikers and care to explain?

I count myself as someone strongly in favor of less structure (buildings, bridges, non-native trail surface, staff, etc.) in wilderness. I know little about this particular situation, but it sounds like the forest service violated several wilderness rules when the flew the thing off the mountain and rebuilt it. I'm strongly in favor of the rules that apply to citizens equally applying to government employees and agencies, so this is problematic for me.

And if you *truly* want people of other opinions to engage in a thoughtful conversation, you might consider not inviting them in the same sentence in which you called them "idiots".

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If not now, when?
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Damian
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PostThu Mar 29, 2012 8:31 pm 
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cascadeclimber wrote:
And if you *truly* want people of other opinions to engage in a thoughtful conversation, you might consider not inviting them in the same sentence in which you called them "idiots".

up.gif  up.gif
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Sore Feet
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PostThu Mar 29, 2012 8:39 pm 
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So what doesn't make sense to me is the whole helicopter argument.  Technically the helicopter was never in the wilderness because it didn't land.  I suppose the technicality is there is some sort of airspace restriction where aerial vehicles have to stay X feet above the ground, but then what about S&R rescues that mandate an airlift?  What about helicopters that use lakes for water retrieval for fighting forest fires?  Seems to me like they're arguing semantics.

Either way, if they can't use a helicopter to take the thing down, I think the Wilderness Watch people should volunteer their time to haul it out on their backs as penance.  suuure.gif

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Snowbrushy
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PostThu Mar 29, 2012 8:41 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
Hey, they've virtually shut down the logging.

It's like a guilt trip that you will never give up on..
If it had been NP in the first place this probably wouldn't have happened. Different rules.
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Schroder
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PostThu Mar 29, 2012 8:44 pm 
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It is legal to use a helicopter in a Wilderness for maintenance, as well as SAR missions.

One thing that pisses me off about this whole issue is that the original Glacier Peak Wilderness boundaries were specifically drawn around the lookout to exclude it. When the boundaries were expanded again in the 80's, they ignored it.
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Logbear
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PostThu Mar 29, 2012 8:54 pm 
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When I saw the article in the Everett Herald my first thought was that the USFS Darrington District got caught and now they have to pay the piper.  Iíve read the article and Iíve read several blogs and documents that are available at Wilderness Watch regarding the history of this lookout.  I donít think the judge had a very difficult time making his decision in this matter.  The law is pretty clear.  And what the USFS did showed a blatant disregard for the law.

I like Fire Lookouts.  In the pursuit of a Geocaching challenge, Iíve visited 55 Fire Lookout sites in Washington State.  19 of those sites had a still standing structure.  The rest of the sites, like Barlow Point, French Point, and Signal Peak just had remains.  I never got to the Green Mountain lookout site, but if I had gotten there, I would have preferred finding the remains of the old lookout instead of finding a brand new lookout building.  Iíve been to several lookout sites that have new buildings and those are great, but I drove to those sites.  When I walk up to an old site like Barlow Point I can find the old bolts in the rocks and try to imagine what it was like when the building was there.   I wouldnít want to see a new building on Barlow Point and thatís not even in a Wilderness Area.  The idea of a new lookout in a Wilderness area just doesnít seem to have much ďhistoricalĒ appeal to me.

There is an old miners cabin that was built in the 1930ís in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness that has been maintained by a few people that know itís there.  Everybody and everything that gets there arrives by foot.  This cabin has a great deal of historical and cultural value.  Iíve spent many a rainy and snowy night in this cabin.  When this old cabin falls down or gets crushed by one of the huge trees nearby, Iíll be saddened by its loss.  But I wouldnít want the USFS to helicopter a new cabin in to replace it.

To sum up my thoughts: The USFS should have done the right and legal thing and left the remains of the old lookout where they were for us to enjoy.  Iím saddened that I never got to visit the old lookout on Green Mountain.  Maybe when the new building is removed Iíll go there and imagine what the old one was like.  But I donít have much desire to visit the building as it is now.  But that's just me.
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Schroder
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PostThu Mar 29, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Logbear wrote:
Iíve read several blogs and documents that are available at Wilderness Watch

Nothing like seeing only one side..

Barlow would still be there but they burned it down in 1965, as they did with so many of the lookouts.
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Allison
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Feckless Swooner
PostThu Mar 29, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Totally.  rolleyes.gif

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Slugman
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Slower than ever
PostThu Mar 29, 2012 9:17 pm 
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Hey, good idea, whenever an old building needs repair, instead just let it crumble so a few weirdos can gape at the wreckage.  crazy.gif   You know that post was agenda-driven BS by the constant use of "new building", "new lookout", again and again. You can call it a new building all you want, but that doesn't make you right.

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"There is a pleasure in the pathless woods, There is a rapture on the lonely shore. There is society where none intrudes, By the deep sea, and music in its roar: I love not man the less, but nature more..."  Childe Harold
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