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John Morrow
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PostSun Jan 13, 2013 5:28 pm 
zephyr wrote:
BigBear, I need to ask a dumb question here. According the Green Trails map (Snoqualmie Pass, WA--No 207) and the topo I printed off of Alpine Topo online, this entire area is part of the Wenatchee National Forest, right? I guess I am unclear on private property in a National Forest. Though I know you can have leased acreage and cabins. Looking at the Green Trails map, I do see some checkerboard shading, but nothing in the legend to indicate what this might mean. I wonder if this discussion has already occurred here. I could start digging, but if anyone has some links to share it would be nice. Meanwhile, does anyone know if the it's acceptable with the stakeholders to use the roads and just not wander off the track. There were many ski, snowshoe and particularly snowmobile tracks in the roadbed. Thanks, ~z
For some reason GT does not mention that the grey shading does indeed denote private land. As mentioned above, Section 3 (the greyed out one in question, that Spur Road 124 climbs through) was a land grant parcel granted to the railroad initially. Since then it either became Plum Creek or Boise Cascade timber land, I can not remember which. Then it was sold and subdivided into parcels of smaller size. Forterra, formerly Cascade Land Conservancy, has been intrumental in attempting to purchase as many parcels back as possible to guarantee wildlife migratory movement through the Central Cascades. Also, to make sure they remain accessible to the recreating public. I honestly do not know where all the interested parties are with regard to completing the purchase of the private lands. This is a good place to get an overview an history of Checkerboard Lands issues: http://cascade.sierraclub.org/directory/committees/checkerboard Typically, USGS Topos, which I am guessing is the base map for Alpine Topo, will have the larger USFS boundary but not necessarily the private inholdings.

“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver “A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.” ― MLK Jr.
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John Morrow
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PostSun Jan 13, 2013 5:35 pm 
Hi East King, were these signs on the 124 Spur itself or off to the edges? I am pretty sure Roger Gervin's route is on the 124 Spur off of the FS RD 4832.

“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver “A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.” ― MLK Jr.
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John Morrow
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PostSun Jan 13, 2013 5:40 pm 
tlake wrote:
Quote:
"If a USFS road passes through private property you are welcome to use it."
Only if the USFS has a legal right of way can you use the road. Just because it has a USFS number does not make it legal for the public to use.
This is pretty important to know so that recreationists can be assured of access into perpetuity. Like tlake says, The US Forest Service must hold an easement on the road in order for access to be guaranteed to the public. I believe that the major Private Timber Companies and the USFS had agreements in place to insure public access (in most cases legal easements) through their private parcels. Those easements do carry over when the private land changes hands. Thus the public enjoyed access through Section 3 while probably not really being aware that it was not National Forest Land. The 124 spur is one such road with a permanent easement. Public access through that right-of-way should still be assured even if the new landowner is attempting to sign it different. I should know these lands issues better. Specifically down to the language of Land Use.

“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver “A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.” ― MLK Jr.
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John Morrow
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PostSun Jan 13, 2013 6:38 pm 
yukon222 wrote:
The FS 4832-124 road officially ends at the Section 3 boundary (that is the chunk of private land). See the Cle Elum Ranger District road map here (page 5 has this area shown, with the White square corresponding to private land). While the physical road continues beyond the boundary line between public Forest Service land and private land, that is the private landowners road going thru their property and eventually connecting up with other Forest Service roads up higher. http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5317428.pdf
This is very interesting. I do not know why the 124 Spur simply "ends" on this particular ORV Trail Map. It is my understanding that this is indeed a Forest Service Road with a permanent easement and open to public use in the winter.

“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver “A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.” ― MLK Jr.
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PostSun Jan 13, 2013 6:56 pm 
John Morrow wrote:
yukon222 wrote:
The FS 4832-124 road officially ends at the Section 3 boundary (that is the chunk of private land). See the Cle Elum Ranger District road map here (page 5 has this area shown, with the White square corresponding to private land). While the physical road continues beyond the boundary line between public Forest Service land and private land, that is the private landowners road going thru their property and eventually connecting up with other Forest Service roads up higher. http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5317428.pdf
This is very interesting. I do not know why the 124 Spur simply "ends" on this particular ORV Trail Map. It is my understanding that this is indeed a Forest Service Road with a permanent easement and open to public use in the winter.
John, Maybe the USFS did a Closure/Decommissioning in the recent past on the remainder of the 124 road (when it entered the private property) and that is why the USFS official road map does not show the road continuing onward?

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EastKing
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PostSun Jan 13, 2013 6:57 pm 
John Morrow wrote:
Hi East King, were these signs on the 124 Spur itself or off to the edges? I am pretty sure Roger Gervin's route is on the 124 Spur off of the FS RD 4832.
The three signs we saw were off to the edges. The gate to the road was mostly covered in snow.

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zephyr
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PostSun Jan 13, 2013 7:28 pm 
Thanks, yukon222 for posting that map and the other information from Wenatchee District. The map is not too very detailed because of the scale probably. But there are more roads shown on my topo than that map. I wonder if that means that only the published roads are Forest Service and the secondary roads are private. By the way, the Legend for these maps is on page 2. I missed that at first. Thanks John Morrow for your additional insight. This is a pretty interesting exploration.
John Morrow wrote:
This is pretty important to know so that recreationists can be assured of access into perpetuity. Like tlake says, The US Forest Service must hold an easement on the road in order for access to be guaranteed to the public. I believe that the major Private Timber Companies and the USFS had agreements in place to insure public access (in most cases legal easements) through their private parcels. Those easements do carry over when the private land changes hands. Thus the public enjoyed access through Section 3 while probably not really being aware that it was not National Forest Land. The 124 spur is one such road with a permanent easement. Public access through that right-of-way should still be assured even if the new landowner is attempting to sign it different.
Bolding mine. ~z
John Morrow wrote:
It is my understanding that this is indeed a Forest Service Road with a permanent easement and open to public use in the winter.
This is very good news. ~z

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John Morrow
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PostSun Jan 13, 2013 8:18 pm 
yukon222 wrote:
John Morrow wrote:
yukon222 wrote:
The FS 4832-124 road officially ends at the Section 3 boundary (that is the chunk of private land). See the Cle Elum Ranger District road map here (page 5 has this area shown, with the White square corresponding to private land). While the physical road continues beyond the boundary line between public Forest Service land and private land, that is the private landowners road going thru their property and eventually connecting up with other Forest Service roads up higher. http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5317428.pdf
This is very interesting. I do not know why the 124 Spur simply "ends" on this particular ORV Trail Map. It is my understanding that this is indeed a Forest Service Road with a permanent easement and open to public use in the winter.
John, Maybe the USFS did a Closure/Decommissioning in the recent past on the remainder of the 124 road (when it entered the private property) and that is why the USFS official road map does not show the road continuing onward?
That is a good point, Y222. I do not know if that has occurred. It could also be being planned for the future. That would certainly restrict motorized summer travel for administrative and/or public use. But the easement right-of-way would still apply at this time allowing winter nonmotorized access. I think I remember it being gated in the summer. This would have been determined necessary by either Boise Cascade, the USFS, or both for a number of reasons (maintenance costs for example). I wouldn't take too much stock in the minor spur roads layer of that ORV map. The primary intent of that map is to delineate which trails (not roads) are open to which type of motorized or nonmotorized recreation use.

“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver “A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.” ― MLK Jr.
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John Morrow
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PostSun Jan 13, 2013 8:40 pm 
zephyr wrote:
Thanks, yukon222 for posting that map and the other information from Wenatchee District. The map is not too very detailed because of the scale probably. But there are more roads shown on my topo than that map. I wonder if that means that only the published roads are Forest Service and the secondary roads are private. By the way, the Legend for these maps is on page 2. I missed that at first.
Zephyr, The Forest Service classifies roads by maintenance level, so a secondary road could still be USFS. The numbering system helps to decipher the road classicfication a bit: Level 5: Paved, two lane. Number would be 2 digit i.e. "46" (4600 with the 00 implied) Level 4: Two lane gravel or one lane gravel. Number also 2 digit i.e. "54" Level 3: One lane gravel or native surface. Number four digit i.e. "5480" Level 2: High clearance, open. Or gated or bermed, to restrict motorized travel. seven digit number, with first 4 digits referring to the primary road the level 2 road intersects, and often dropped. i.e. "4834-124" Level 1: currently not maintained for travel, intermittent service road. I believe the number would be in the 600's i.e. "spur 640" Hope that makes sense.

“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver “A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.” ― MLK Jr.
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