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SergioNapelo
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SergioNapelo
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PostTue Mar 12, 2013 8:10 pm 
Tvashtar wrote:
It's safe to say that modern Christians have continued their historical legacy of damning science and human rights with characteristic vigor - from anti-gay and anti-women legislation to monetarily supporting the killing of gays in Africa. Any philosophy where a) you're chosen, b) everyone else is damned and c) science is bunk - is a dead end in this increasingly crowded world - just from a basic survival standpoint, of nothing else. Fortunately, religion and its colorful cast of invisible, psychotic characters is in rapid decline in America - we're finally catching up with the rest of the modern world after all.
Wow... so much hate... I am really sorry you encounter so many people that call themselves christians, but do not live by christians values nor know most of the time what being Christian is. Yes, there are many fake christians, and Christianity gets a bad image because of that. Christian is not going to church, or anything you describe above. Christian means following Christ, and he was advocate for sick, poor, women and all people that were abused and forgotten. You are accusing christianity of hate, but you hate even more... please do not hate people, if you can't understand them, or do not know who they really are. P.S. but on the other hand, what you write in your post describes really accurate Islamic religion and governments ruled by it...

"I will lift up my eyes to the mountains. From where shall my help come. My help comes from the LORD, who made heaven and earth!" - David, King of Israel 1,000 BC
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RumiDude
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PostTue Mar 12, 2013 8:48 pm 
SergioNapelo wrote:
You are accusing christianity of hate, but you hate even more... please do not hate people, if you can't understand them, or do not know who they really are.
I think I understand Christians and know some Christian history as well, Tvashtar is fairly accurate in his description even though he may have stated it in an overly dramatic manner. What is interesting to me is that this statue of Jesus supposedly was erected for our WWII troops, in similar manner to statues erected on mountain tops in Europe for the same reason. Yet, all of Europe is Christian. WWI and WWII were mostly, at least in the European theater, Christian soldiers from Christian nations fighting and killing other Christian soldiers (and civilians) from other Christian nations. If there ever was a real Jesus and if he was really the son of god, I doubt he would want his likeness erected in honor of his followers killing each other. If he did want that honor, then he isn't worthy of worship himself, IMO. Either way, it is unworthy of the mountain itself to have that monstrosity up there. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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trestle
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PostTue Mar 12, 2013 8:53 pm 
Tvashtar wrote:
Fortunately, religion and its colorful cast of invisible, psychotic characters is in rapid decline in America
Are you sure? Have you been to MO and seen the huge billboards proclaiming "Jesus Saves?" You can't miss 'em, they're right behind the billboards advertising for the 24-hour porn supermart. lol.gif I wish the characters would go away and the spirituality would come back. Welcome back btw, Tvash. Rumi, there's a famous quote from Lincoln about warring opponents claiming divine inspiration/intervention and how one of them has to be wrong. War sucks.

"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
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onemoremile
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PostTue Mar 12, 2013 9:06 pm 
I think a few European countries in the balkans are islamic.

“Arbolist? Look up the word. I don’t know, maybe I made it up. Anyway, it’s an arbo-tree-ist, somebody who knows about trees.” G.W. Bush
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Snowbrushy
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PostTue Mar 12, 2013 9:13 pm 
johnson37 wrote:
seen the huge billboards proclaiming "Jesus Saves?"
There is the same sign next to the Tacoma REI you can see it from the freeway. Maybe Jesus lives in the Cascade Mountains, (part time in the Olympics). It means that you can't get saved all of the time.. hockeygrin.gif

Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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Tvashtar
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PostTue Mar 12, 2013 9:15 pm 
Hate? That's not an emotion I waste any energy on, friend. Just reporting what's happening. Let's start out by agreeing that I don't know you and you, although you presume otherwise with the hate rhetoric, don't know me. I have noticed that every christian who responds to my basic reports of christian activity says the same thing: "Oh, I'm not like them". Really? Do you vote against marital equality? Do you vote against a women's right to make her own reproductive choices and thus determine her own future? Do you believe atheists, or any nonchristian, is doomed to Hell? Do you believe your better than muslims (you've already answered that one). If you answered yes to any of the above, then look in the mirror, brother. That's bigotry backed by real action that hurts real people, and bigotry is bigotry, regardless of how good you feel about it and which imaginary magical being tells you its OK. If you believe the root of much of the world's evil is ignorance, than one need look no further than religion to find the most widespread form of it. And just so you know me a little better, I was a believer until I was 20 - I had a good experience with the Catholic church (so many brands of absolute truth!), but I finally woke up to reality and began to think for myself. Any philosophy that bases its morality on imaginary beings, or which lays claim to absolute, unquestionable truth, and which includes a 'chosen people' mentality, is bigoted, ignorant, and morally bankrupt at its most basic level. There's really no way to fix that kind of belief system and walk a true moral path that promotes equality and true compassion other than to reject it entirely. You may call that hate. I call it simply stating the obvious.

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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SergioNapelo
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PostTue Mar 12, 2013 9:20 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
I think I understand Christians and know some Christian history as well,
There is followers of Christ that are Christians, and there are people that are part of a religion that claims to be "Christian". Jesus was most anti-religious person in the history, he was against established religion, and that is why they killed Him. Religion kills, many people used christianity in history (and still use it) for power and personal gain, and that goes against real teachings of Christ. I am totaly against statues or icons on mountains or any were else, it just happened that this tread turned to anti-christian hate speech, and that what I do not like. I think this site should be about hiking, and not religion bashing. I LOVE HIKING!!! (and I disapprove of any hate speech, no mater wich group it is directed towards)

"I will lift up my eyes to the mountains. From where shall my help come. My help comes from the LORD, who made heaven and earth!" - David, King of Israel 1,000 BC
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Tvashtar
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PostTue Mar 12, 2013 9:25 pm 
Yes I'm sure about the decline of American religiousity since the early 90s. A major study came out recently on the subject - there's been a lot of buzz about it. Google that action. Christians don't deny it, either. They're pretty worried about it. They should be. The did it to themselves by being such bigoted assholes regarding public policy. The new generation just ain't buying the hate anymore. They like science, along with all the tech toys science has brought us. Regarding muslims, yeah, some are assholes, some aren't. Just like any population of any size. In my view, its a slightly more legitimate religion -= at least they have historical proof that Mohammed actually existed. Jesus? He sounds more like just one of about 20 recycled virgin/birth son of god myths so popular during that time. There's not a shred of credible evidence to the contrary, really. Yet here are, in 2013, with God Still Hating Fags.

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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SergioNapelo
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PostTue Mar 12, 2013 9:29 pm 
Tvashtar wrote:
That's bigotry backed by real action that hurts real people, and bigotry is bigotry, regardless of how good you feel about it
from what you say, it looks like you think that you are better than me, and your opinion is better then mine... so I can turn your argument against you on any point you mentioned, and what you say about others applies to you also. Let be friends! I do not want to change anyones mind, just want respect from people for who I am, as I understand, it is exactly what you want also. makeout.gif

"I will lift up my eyes to the mountains. From where shall my help come. My help comes from the LORD, who made heaven and earth!" - David, King of Israel 1,000 BC
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Tvashtar
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PostTue Mar 12, 2013 9:34 pm 
Better? What does that mean? I'm pretty sure my actions are not those of a bigot. I don't discriminate against Christians, as they do against women, gays, and, if go back in history not very far, blacks and other minorities (guess who fought to maintain the institution of slavery by claiming it was Gods will?). I may think the God thing is patently silly - as many Christians would about my atheism, but that's not bigotry. To be a bigot in my book, you have to actually push other people around for who they are. Does that sound like Christians in America? Sure does to me. Need examples? Regarding friends, I've got no problem with that. I'm already there - I consider this a friendly act - being truthful and straightforward about something that I feel is important. I choose friends who follow a compassionate path, however. If you think da gays are in God's Dog House, for example, I'm gonna have a problem with that. I would hope you realize that nothing I've said is directed at you personally. Again, I don't know you, or your beliefs, really. There are so many brands of Christianity out there - some believe Satan was Jesus' brother, some a fallen angel who rules Earth, some de-emphasize him entirely. Even within a sect, everybody cherry picks what they agree with and what they don't (I call it Catholic style). In the end, everyone chooses to accept or reject every single one of their beliefs, regardless of how they came up with them. . That absolute truth stuff can get confusing when humans get involved.

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 12:16 pm 
BTW, regarding Montana's Big Plastic Jesus - I categorize that as roadside kitch, along with Paul Bunyan and his Big Blue Ox Babe, and I happen to have an affinity for roadside kitch. If it were in a courthouse or a public school, that would be another matter. It's not. The locals seem to like it - I'd go with their sentiments on the issue, personally. No big. Hell, even this heathen has a BVM nightlight in my bathroom. I can see some folks being offended, but do anything in this world and somebody's gonna whine about...as I well know. My approval doesn't preclude me from someday taking a can of dark umber spraypaint and correcting the statue's racial origin at some point in the future. Or Rastafizing him.

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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mtngirl79
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm 
Religion is more than important to people and culture as every culture needs a way to explain the unknown. We live in strange times as now, science is explaining so many unknowns away, but there are still many that will not be figured out in our lifetimes. Cultures do not exist without religion. If there isn't one, they make one, and there is no universally "good" religion. Hinduism has an extremely strict and rigid class system. Buddism came out of Hinduism like Christianity came out of Judaism and we can find horrors in bedded in every religion. What we often ignore is that many advancements in the arts, science, and mathematics can actually be attributed to religions, and if you follow modern religious traditions and beliefs back to their source, you can see the influence each had on the others, and how/why they developed they way they did in relation to the realities of the times and places they did. The atrocities are the responsibility of the people who performed them, and as much the result of abuse of power as religion, itself. Just as humanity has justified horrible acts with religious doctrine, the same belief systems gave (and still gives) many the strength to go on another day. Hating religion is like hating humanity itself. That Jesus statue is as much a cultural icon as it is a religious one, and it has been there for a long time. I am a strong proponent for tradition. If a group were fighting to put a new religious shrine up, I would appose it, strongly, but what was placed there, legally, a long time ago should be grandfathered in. Not because I want it there, but because many people do. I see it the same as maintaining a historical building, or look out in an wilderness area or national park. Cultural significance and historical value trump the offense some may feel seeing a nearly ridiculous caricature of Jesus at a ski resort the same way it trumps some peoples' offense of a lookout or shelter in the wilderness. You can't have it your way all the time, and whether you like it or not, Jesus is a significant figure in our culture. Big Mountain Jesus is not the problem, and there are many real problems that could use some attention from the masses.

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Tvashtar
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 12:25 pm 
"Cultures do not exist without religion" Where did you come up with that? Ever been to Japan? Not very religious. At all. My sister's lived there for 35 years, so yes, I know what I'm talking about. Similarly, the majority of Europeans self identify as non-religious. Sure, the cathedrals are still there - and full of tourists now, but it seems that their culture is holding up just fine, thank you. America is becoming non-religious, quite rapidly, in fact. The culture seems richer and more varied than ever. I'd also like to hear more about all the atrocities Buddhism has sanctioned and funded. The 8 Fold Path is pretty clear on the subject of compassion, cruelty, and violence. Educate me. Recognizing that Christianity is the last bastion of bigotry in America is not 'hating religion', it's opposing bigorty as well as recognizing a verifiable fact. One only need to look at the voting patterns and funding behind every single anti-marital equality effort in this country in the past two decades, and there have been many, to realize this. One must recognize an injustice to correct it. But hey, gays only comprise an estimated 6% or so of our population (or any large population), 25 million people, so why the fuss, right? Religion was likely not invented primarily to explain the unknown, which, lets face it, is only a nice-to-have as far as survival is concerned. You need to know when winter is coming to stay alive - you don't really need to know why (and we hominids didn't throughout most of our existence). Since we're obviously hardwired to believe in myths of all kinds, there must be some evolutionary benefit to that. One school of thought is that it promoted social cohesion and more stable leadership (the leader claiming to have the spiritual world on his side for legitimacy) - so the tribe made out better than its competitors. We're not running barefoot around the Serengeti anymore. Humanity now faces serious global threats - climate change, overpopulation, sectarian violence. Religion and its anti-science bias, hands down, now makes it more, rather than less, difficult to weather these challenges. And finally, where does one get a pet wolverine these days?

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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mtngirl79
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 1:05 pm 
Japan has a huge religious tradition. Just because the majority of the population claims no religious affiliation does not erase the fact that Shinto and Buddhist belief systems and traditions are infused in the Japanese culture. Buddhists are human, and have supported war, violence and had sex scandals in their monasteries, just like all the rest. I don't have time to prove it, but google will if you are interested. As I said, the fact the science is explaining more and more unknowns is changing thing on some levels, but you cannot separate religion from culture. You can mix and match and stir the pot with believers and non believers and hypocrisies, but you cannot erase religion from culture.

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trestle
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 1:20 pm 
Tvashtar wrote:
Yes I'm sure about the decline of American religiousity since the early 90s. A major study came out recently on the subject - there's been a lot of buzz about it. Google that action.
Did you miss the sarcasm? rolleyes.gif

"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
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