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RumiDude
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 1:22 pm 
mtngirl79 wrote:
Hating religion is like hating humanity itself.
Not true at all! There are many cultural aspects and manifestations of humanity which are absolutely worthy of our hate. War is one which comes immediately to mind.
mtngirl79 wrote:
Big Mountain Jesus is not the problem, and there are many real problems that could use some attention from the masses.
Big Mountain Jesus was placed there by the Knights of Columbus, not the town in general. Big Mountain Jersus is long overdue for removal. It only serves now as a ridiculous characature and as a rallying point for religionists who wish to demonstrate that the US is a "Christian nation". It is time for it to go, IMO. This attitude of, "more important problems" is poor justification for allowing it to remain. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Tvashtar
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 1:28 pm 
One, you've changed your thesis. "You can't separate religion from culture" - a rather obvious recognition that religion has historically played a role in most societies, from the much more ridiculous "Cultures do not exist without religion", which strongly implies that religion is necessary for culture to exist. Japan = culture = no real religion anymore. Guess you've got to experience the place to know what I mean. Religion has been a part of many cultures (I'm not familiar with every culture on the planet, and I'd wager you're not, either). But no longer plays a significant role in many today, Japan included. Your view of Japan is dated by at least half a century, and your statement that culture depends on religion remains ridiculous in the face of current trends. By religion, I'm referring to the belief in and fealty to supernatural beings. Many sects of Buddhism don't qualify - they teach a moral code, a way of life, and a philosophy, but not a religion by the definition we've been discussing here. Apples and oranges. Everyone has a moral code of some sort, myself included. It may be formal Buddhism or cobbled together on one's one, but that does not make one religious. This wonkish discussion is all fine and good, but the more salient discussion here is the role of religion today as an obstacle to America fully realizing the promise of the Bill of Rights, as well as charting a constructive course for our future, given the challenges we face.

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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Tvashtar
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 1:29 pm 
johnson37 wrote:
Tvashtar wrote:
Yes I'm sure about the decline of American religiousity since the early 90s. A major study came out recently on the subject - there's been a lot of buzz about it. Google that action.
Did you miss the sarcasm? rolleyes.gif
GUILTY, YOUR HONOR! It happens once a century or so. Or twice, maybe...this week.

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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Tvashtar
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 1:38 pm 
If folks are so up in arms about BMJ, why don't they just take him out one night? So much easier than a lawsuit. I know a few friends' lawns he'd look real good on. Chaining a wolverine to it would add to the surprise.

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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mtngirl79
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 1:42 pm 
Tvashtar wrote:
Religion was likely not invented primarily to explain the unknown, which, lets face it, is only a nice-to-have as far as survival is concerned. You need to know when winter is coming to stay alive - you don't really need to know why (and we hominids didn't throughout most of our existence). Since we're obviously hardwired to believe in myths of all kinds, there must be some evolutionary benefit to that. One school of thought is that it promoted social cohesion and more stable leadership (the leader claiming to have the spiritual world on his side for legitimacy) - so the tribe made out better than its competitors. We're not running barefoot around the Serengeti anymore. Humanity now faces serious global threats - climate change, overpopulation, sectarian violence. Religion and its anti-science bias, hands down, now makes it more, rather than less, difficult to weather these challenges.
The need to know why is what makes human's different from other animals. Science developed out of the need to know why. Why do we care what the moon really is? Why does it matter? Why do we want to know if there was ever life on mars? Put yourself in Ancient Mesopotamia where nature is trying to kill you. It floods your cities, ruins your crops, don't you want to know why? Aren't you going to try to find a way to stop it? I am not discounting the atrocities of man in the name of religion, nor and I saying any religion is right or wrong. Religion acted as a method of explaining the unexplainable, just as science does today, and is tightly woven into a culture in a way that is completely impossible to remove. You cannot understand history without understanding religion. You cannot understand a culture's art, literature, music, poetry, or traditions without understanding its religion. I am also not disputing the fact that religion has often been ALSO used as a method of controlling and appeasing the masses. Humans will always try to find the answer to why. Religion does that. Find me a culture that developed without a religion.. there isn't one.

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Tvashtar
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 1:55 pm 
Flood control is pure practical empiricism. Let's try this. Did it work? You can be really good at it without having a clue as to why its been raining so damn hard, lately. But mostly its politics. The King says build a canal, you build a canal. Not enough disposable man power to build that canal? You don't build one and continue to get flooded. More prosperous societies get nice canals (until climate change, war, or unsustainable ways of life end the party, that is), others die out. Nobody needed to know jack about what actually causes the weather to happen. Kill a lamb on an altar and hedge your bet. The leading theories regarding religion involve its role in centralizing, legitimizing, and wielding political power and the competitive advantage that affords a population. The Why Are We Here and What Do We Get? part is the sparkly, feel good paint applied to popularize it. Those are mostly very modern ideas, anyway. Did Neanderthals spend a lot of time wondering how it all began? Probably not much. I'm not sure how much you know about paleolithic cultures, but they tend to focus on a) getting fed, b) getting laid, and c) not getting killed more than What's My Purpose In Life or Where Did the Sun Come From? The latter is a coddled, modern American's self focused projection. Religion is easily removed from a culture given a bit of time - and not much of that. People simply stop believing and move on to other things. It's happening right now, right here, right before your very eyes. Look at one individuals culture - my own. Raised Catholic. How much of my current 'culture' is Catholic? Not much. My moral code, way of life, beliefs, and how I spend my time every day has little to do with any aspect of that religion, despite my first 20 years as a Papist Bastid. Culture changes very fast, particularly these days. Religion is a disposable component, not a necessity, and its shelf life isn't really that long once enough folks start to think for themselves. Think American morality, as embodied in the Bill of Rights, came from religion? It was mostly a secular, Free Thinkers philosophy, which enjoyed a period of sunlight at the time, that went into that document. It's hard to see this, being an American, because America is an extreme outlier regarding its high level of religiosity among 1st world cultures.

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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mtngirl79
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 2:27 pm 
If you think you are not influenced by your Catholic upbringing, you are kidding yourself. Explain creation myths away. Native American tribes, living a hunter/gatherer existence, all had creation myths. They had religious beliefs, traditions and ceremonies. Why? To explain the unexplainable. Find me a culture that DOESN'T have a creation myth. People as a whole, would rather believe that when they die, they go to a heaven-like place, or are resurrected, or take on a new, but aware form than that this life is it, followed by nothingness. On an individual level, not everyone is going to buy into a religion, but on a large scale, people will always try to explain... and that need to explain will always be vulnerable to manipulation.

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Tvashtar
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 2:45 pm 
It's all about mind share, isn't it? How much of your daily life is consumed by your mythology? Having a creation myth (yeah, everybody's got one), does not inform how paleolithic folks go about their days. Your survival needs are taken care of, you have the luxury of thinking about What It All Means. That's not really the way in tends to work in those cultures. Your assumption that most people want to believe they'll go to place after they die is false. Billions of Buddhists and secular people throughout history have required no such thing. This is largely Western thinking. The wiser philosophies recognize that life is finite, precious, and therefore should not be wasted. They don't spend a whole lot of energy thinking about what happens after your die - you're dead. Who cares? And finally, they understand that in the real world, things are created, destroyed, and recycled. Out with the old, in with the new. The concept of eternal life is part sell job, part conceit. Most of my philosophy, moral code, and daily habits were developed after my stint as a Believer. Shedding Catholicism freed me to develop them on my own. This was not a 'reaction' to religion, which I was fine with, actually. I was just born curious - and probably would have gone through roughly the same process regardless of whether I was raised God fearing or not. Guess you had to be there. You weren't. I realize its innernut culture to presume you know more about a perfect stranger than you do. I'm more empirical in that regard.

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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trestle
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 3:19 pm 
mtngirl79 wrote:
They had religious beliefs, traditions and ceremonies. Why? To explain the unexplainable.
No, those beliefs, traditions, and ceremonies were developed as control; not for educational purposes. Religion doesn't happen before socialization; rather it's a result of proximity and mixing of economic status. Religion also doesn't explain anything; it tells you how the explanation will control your life. The original priests didn't go into business to "explain" anything to people; they became priests to wield influence. Tvash is right; this whole "wonder about myself" is not a universal sentiment throughout time but rather a recent occurrence brought about by time off, job specialization, and surplus of economy.

"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
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Tvashtar
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 3:24 pm 
johnson37 wrote:
Religion also doesn't explain anything; it tells you how the explanation will control your life.
That's quite good. Mind if I borrow it from time to time? With credit, of course.

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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mtngirl79
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 4:02 pm 
it would be really simple if everything was as black and white as you want it to be.

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Tvashtar
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 4:12 pm 
Are we at the insult stage already? No pet wolverine? Innernutz!

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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Tvashtar
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PostWed Mar 13, 2013 4:33 pm 
I have resolved to correct BMJ's complexion someday. It is my destiny!

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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Tvashtar
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PostThu Mar 14, 2013 12:57 pm 
I married a couple of friends this past year, and so (although it wasn't required as I later found out) became an ordained minister. I've been thinking about how to grow my ministry, and this thread has given me some inspiration for a religious icon, my church's cross, if you will: welcome bears. Instant congregation of millions. Samsquanch can play the role of the BVM.

"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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AR
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PostSat Mar 16, 2013 7:56 pm 
I think it would help a touch if the "statue" was not plastic looking and oddly colored. If it was a simple granite statue with period clothing I'm sure the outrage would die down. The base line here is tolerance to have a better society.

...wait...are we just going to hang here or go hiking?
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