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Daryl
Big Shot Economist
Joined: 05 Dec 2008
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Daryl
Big Shot Economist
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 Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:02 pm |
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Why does everything dissolve into a right vs left thing? Can't things just be wrong without politics getting involved and turning into right wing nuts vs liberal whack jobs?
No doubt the guy is a nut and pushing his limits, no doubt the people that showed up with the guns were looking for a reason to show up with their guns against the evil government. No doubt the BLM has the authority to kick him off the land and shame on him for ignoring it. But, is this all really about the tortoise they ran over on the way in? How long have the cattle been there and the tortoise are apparently still there? Is there no mutually beneficial or at least acceptable compromise? Did they really need to go all swat team and snipers? Did they have to kill his steers? All over tortoise? Why does the BLM even have a swat team (I think even my liberal whack job friends should be asking that)?
Why not just arrest the guy? Why the big show of force? it's as if they wanted a showdown to test their new swat team as much as the guys that showed up with their guns.
No one is right here.
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:23 pm |
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| pnw.hiker wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | There are times when the various government levels can be abusive and genuinely violate both the letter and spirit of the law. This Bundy ranch case is not one of them. Neither is the Hage ranch case. Both of these are cases of individuals basically making their own interpretation of the laws and basing their behavior on such private interpretation. The courts have overwhelmingly rejected their arguments and yet they persist. |
I wouldn't group Bundy and Hage together. Also, the courts didn't "overwhelmingly rejected [Hage's] arguments", quite the opposite. It's the government filing appeals for decades, with the knowledge there was a friendly court with well known political leanings in the end. |
Well, I believe it was you who introduce Hage into the discussion. But I was correct in grouping them together because as I noted "Both of these are cases of individuals basically making their own interpretation of the laws and basing their behavior on such private interpretation."
You may quibble over the use of overwhelming as a descriptor of the ultimate rejection of Hage's case, but the court of aapeals rejected all of Hage's arguments and the supreme court denied Hage's estate a writ of certiorari. You are certainly free to descibe this rejection with any qualifier you wish. As far as finding a friendly court goes, it looks like Wayne Hage founf that in Judge Jones. Judge Jones decision seems to have been out of step with the rest of the federal judicial system, including the supreme court.
| pnw.hiker wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | What really disgusts me is their appeal to patriotic sentiments, acting as if they are the last remaining true Americans standing for American values. Instead they represent one of the worst episodes of our American legacy, namely manifest destiny movement. |
I feel the same way.
However, is it so difficult to understand where this sentiment comes from when government agencies act in an extrajudicial manner, getting away with vindictive, abusive, illegal and conspiratorial behavior, with no consequences? |
I can understand a frustration among people who feel as if they have been wronged, and certainly Wayne Hage and Cliven Bundy were/are frustrated. But Bundy declared war and suddenly he got a response from places as far away as Idaho, Montana, Texas, New Hampshire, and Florida from various militia and fringe groups and individuals. Both cases have went on for a very long time. It was just VERY recently that the court ordered the BLM to sieze Bundy's cattle and get them off federal land. I'd say the US government has shown surprising restraint with Cliven Bundy.
| pnw.hiker wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | As BigSteve suggests, these people and their supporters are no heroes. They should be treated like the lawbreakers they are.
Rumi |
Again, you are painting this issue with a broad brush. Just because there is one rancher that's nut's, doesn't mean they all are, nor does it legitimize abusive and extrajudicial behavior of government agencies. |
I would say that if I am painting with a broad brush then so are you.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:28 pm |
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| Daryl wrote: | | Did they have to kill his steers? All over tortoise? Why does the BLM even have a swat team (I think even my liberal whack job friends should be asking that)? |
That was the Las Vegas SWAT team.| Daryl wrote: | | it's as if they wanted a showdown to test their new swat team |
That was the Las Vegas SWAT team.
Rumi
EDIT: There is a special ops team which specializes in wilderness situations for things like this. If you remember a couple years back when a guy shot and killed the ranger at MRNP, the government deployed their special ops team to hunt him down and to protect the citizens who were camped out in the backcountry. You might also recall there was a TR from nwhikers members about being lead out to safety by part of these special ops people. AFAIK, these were not deployed for this Bundy ranch standoff.
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:06 pm |
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| Daryl wrote: | | Why does everything dissolve into a right vs left thing? |
Everything? This thread isn't about everything. It's about one thing: a serial lawbreaker in contempt of two federal court orders who, but for the right wing media's nomination to hero status, we never would have heard about.
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Daryl
Big Shot Economist
Joined: 05 Dec 2008
Posts: 1817 | TRs | Pics
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Daryl
Big Shot Economist
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Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:29 pm |
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| BigSteve wrote: | | Daryl wrote: | | Why does everything dissolve into a right vs left thing? |
Everything? This thread isn't about everything. It's about one thing: a serial lawbreaker in contempt of two federal court orders who, but for the right wing media's nomination to hero status, we never would have heard about. |
Damn the right wing news sources for exposing us to stories the rest of the news sources feel we need to be insulated from!
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graywolf
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graywolf
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Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm |
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Interesting. I first heard about this from High Country News, not exactly a right wing organization.
The only easy day was yesterday...
The only easy day was yesterday...
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Ski
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Joined: 28 May 2005
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Ski
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Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:39 pm |
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re: Daryl's question above about "SWAT team".
whether or not the "SWAT team" was BLM or LVPD or National Guard, it's still a good question: why the great display of force? was that really necessary? were Bundy's supporters already there with their guns, or did they bring them in response to the BLM's actions?
was it necessary to push this to the brink of armed conflict over a goddam tortoise? doesn't our government have high-priced "negotiators" on the payroll to deal with stuff like this, or is an AR15 the better answer?
Jesus Christ... no wonder we get whacko stories on the news about Wacos and Ruby Ridges... who's in control and who's not in control here?
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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pnw.hiker
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Joined: 29 Sep 2006
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| Ski wrote: | | re: Daryl's question above about "SWAT team".
whether or not the "SWAT team" was BLM or LVPD or National Guard, it's still a good question: why the great display of force? was that really necessary? were Bundy's supporters already there with their guns, or did they bring them in response to the BLM's actions?
was it necessary to push this to the brink of armed conflict over a goddam tortoise? doesn't our government have high-priced "negotiators" on the payroll to deal with stuff like this, or is an AR15 the better answer?
Jesus Christ... no wonder we get whacko stories on the news about Wacos and Ruby Ridges... who's in control and who's not in control here? |
The Federal government finds that if they occasionally 'crucify' someone who rocks the boat, they get more power. Citizens then become afraid and are less likely to stand up for their rights. Just last week the feds intentionally destroyed private property on Bundy's land (water troughs and stuff). Their warrant did not give them the right to do that, yet no one will be arrested, you can count on it. They are actually behaving worse than Bundy. I don't understand how these feds can willfully and blatantly break the law, and then snivel and whine when citizens start protesting.
| BigSteve wrote: | | Daryl wrote: | | Why does everything dissolve into a right vs left thing? |
Everything? This thread isn't about everything. It's about one thing: a serial lawbreaker in contempt of two federal court orders who, but for the right wing media's nomination to hero status, we never would have heard about. |
No, it's also about government agencies, astonished their power is limited, and that they are reaping the consequences of their actions.
In the long run they just can't have it both ways; they can't engage in extrajudicial, illegal, vindictive and abusive behavior, while also expecting citizens to curtsy. The fact that people are sticking up for a nut like Bundy shows just how far it's deteriorated.
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Ski
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Joined: 28 May 2005
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Ski
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Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:37 pm |
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| pnw.hiker wrote: | | The Federal government finds that if they occasionally 'crucify' someone who rocks the boat, they get more power. The citizens then become afraid and are less likely to stand up for their rights. |
not exactly sure how the article you've cited is relevant to this issue, but... what actually happens on the ground can be much different: this kind of nonsense is what got us a Timothy McVeigh and countless armed wing-nut "militias" all around the country. the remaining population that is capable of independent thinking and rational thought in many cases simply loses trust in their government. fortunately for the government, the vast majority are too busy watching Homer Simpson to really pay much attention.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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snoqpass
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Joined: 21 Dec 2007
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snoqpass
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Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:51 pm |
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| Ski wrote: | | re: Daryl's question above about "SWAT team".
whether or not the "SWAT team" was BLM or LVPD or National Guard, it's still a good question: why the great display of force? was that really necessary? were Bundy's supporters already there with their guns, or did they bring them in response to the BLM's actions?
was it necessary to push this to the brink of armed conflict over a goddam tortoise? doesn't our government have high-priced "negotiators" on the payroll to deal with stuff like this, or is an AR15 the better answer?
Jesus Christ... no wonder we get whacko stories on the news about Wacos and Ruby Ridges... who's in control and who's not in control here? |
That's whole different subject that we could have a spirited debate on that would go into a downward spiral
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:53 pm |
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| Ski wrote: | | re: Daryl's question above about "SWAT team".
whether or not the "SWAT team" was BLM or LVPD or National Guard, it's still a good question: why the great display of force? was that really necessary? were Bundy's supporters already there with their guns, or did they bring them in response to the BLM's actions?
was it necessary to push this to the brink of armed conflict over a goddam tortoise? doesn't our government have high-priced "negotiators" on the payroll to deal with stuff like this, or is an AR15 the better answer?
Jesus Christ... no wonder we get whacko stories on the news about Wacos and Ruby Ridges... who's in control and who's not in control here? |
From what I understand, Bundy has continued all this time making threats but in a way that they aren't law breaking threats--mentioning his arsenal and that tends to make folks on the other side nervous.
If the BLM sent in law enforcement people, they are armed. Even in their office, they are armed.
Remember 1993 when all this started? That was the time when Oklahoma City was bombed, and just after Ruby Ridge and Waco. The birth of the whackos.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:03 am |
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| NacMacFeegle wrote: | | Daryl wrote: | | If anyone has seen this land, you'd know it's not pretty or really worth protecting as other than grazing or racing ATV's it's pretty much useless. there are countless miles of land just like this across the southwest. It's flat scrub land and letting the cows graze actually does a pretty good service as it greatly reduces the wildfire risks. in AZ property owners would pay ranchers to bring in herds to clear the land to reduce fire risks. |
Just because you consider it ugly does not mean that others consider it so, nor is beauty the most important aspect of any tract of land.
| Quote: | | Just where is that brown lake? That churned up delicate alpine meadow?
One note from what I've seen. Our Warshington cows seem fat and happy out in the woods. I was surprised to see the cows in Northern AZ that were out grazing on allotments were skinny in comparison. |
It is lakes, not a single lake, and most of the ranching damage I've seen has been in Idaho (I wasn't aware that grazing still occurred on public lands in Washington, perhaps on the Eastern side of the state?). The damage cattle and other livestock wreak on riparian areas is severe, and it can take many years to recover from the damage. The ranchers themselves are often responsible for some of the worst of the devastation; cutting live trees for firewood, digging deep ditches around tent sites and camping in one spot with their herds for so long as to totally devastate the local ecosystem. |
Yes it does, and I have been all over the east side and never saw any cowboy camps with permittees. I think you are getting them mixed up with horse packers. The cows in E. WA are on their own most of the time. They get checked on along with fences checked and salt blocks are put out. I know of no permittees camping out except maybe at roundup time.
Cows go out in May and are brought back in in October. They don't run them in the "high alpine meadows"--they are in the piney lower forests where the grass is good.
I can't remember if the fencing is provided by gubmint or not. I know the permittee usually puts it up and maintains it, and I don't know who supplies the water tanks.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Ski
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Joined: 28 May 2005
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Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:07 am |
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snoqpass:
no... it's not a completely different subject....
when the government or its agents use overwhelming armed force in petty squabbles like this (or the two I cited) they galvanize an already agitated part of our society- the whacko anti-government loonies.
as with Koresh and Weaver, the feds could have waited until the guy drove into town and served a warrant (if that was the task at hand.)
there is no reason that those in positions of authority should have allowed this to escalate to the point it has.
some hot-shot with a title or badge (or maybe both) decided he was going to get into a dick-slingin' contest with one of the locals, and now we have what we have: craziness all around.
it's this sort of idiocy on the part of government employees that brings the whackos out of the woodwork.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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snoqpass
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snoqpass
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Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:23 am |
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If you had a big pile of toys given to you by the taxpayers why would you do something mundane like serve a warrant?
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Ski
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Ski
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Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:24 am |
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well.. that's exactly the problem... along with their 27 8" x 10" color glossy photos, they are compelled to drag out all that cop equipment they have hanging around the police officer station.
there is nothing new under the sun.
particularly the fact that governments obviously do not learn from history.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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