[cartman]

As far as publishing traverses, it's a free country. People still need to have the fitness, skills and determination to make the trip go in the limited weather windows available here. These areas are hardly in danger of being overrun, nor will the new book likely have a significant impact. How many of you critics were in favor of repairing the Suiattle River Road, which will dramatically improve access to several high routes and thus increase impact to these routes? And it's not like publishing a book is that different from posting a publicly available trip report. Matter of fact, the book costs money and has a limited print run; the trip report is free and can be read by everyone, and if the site has a wide enough readership, it's quite possible the TR could be read by more people over time. Peggy Goldman is without question one of the nicest people I've ever met in the mountaineering community, yet since publishing her first book she has been the unfortunate recipient of an inordinate amount of vitriol from people who have never even met her. Peggy published the book likely because it was something she was interested in and because it might help some people get into places they wouldn't have otherwise considered or known about. She certainly didn't do it for the money. Yes, it contains errors; but so does CAG, yet Fred is revered and Peggy is ostracized. Ridiculous and pathetic. If you don't know what you're talking about, be silent. Makes the world a better place.

[Tom]

I'd agree that posting a TR on the internet can have impacts similar to publishing routes in a book. That's why it's important to exercise discretion as far as the level of detail to include to mitigate the impact. I'm sure she's a nice person. Nice people can exercise poor judgment.

[mehitabel]

in my 37 years of backpacking, scrambling off trail, and hiking, one thing i have learned is that you can always avoid crowds by backpacking an off trail route. average hikers will not do this. the only exception is an extremely famous objective. The 5 traverses in Peggy's book are obscure and will remain uncrowded. i just did a daytrip traverse in the tatoosh, a trip i would not have done had i not been using her book as motivation to challenge myself. it was tough and i am sore all over. for the toughest part of the traverse, between Lane and Wahpenayo, there were no use trails and im pretty sure this isnt done too often despite having been in a book all this time. i really dont see why a book with some descriptions of tough routes should be any more controversial than the CAG, the mountaineers, or any other source of information about where to find doable routes in the mountains or up a peak.

[crazyhiker]

[AlpineRose]

Good grief. What's up with the angst about "revealing" sekrit places. All those places are there for everyone to see on maps, google earth, or whatever the latest techno whiz bang thing is. All one needs is a little imagination. Some folks do seem to need to read about a place before they get the idea to actually go there. I have personally boycotted Ms Goldman's literary achievements because they were all places I knew about anyway.

[DIYSteve]

Nobody is being hysterical and nobody is suffering angst about disclosing sekrit places. The issue is posting routes with big fat red lines re a place that currently has no trails. Big fat red lines in books or on the internet result in trail formation. Currently the area is accessible by several (at least 6) routes, all of which require routefinding and navigation skills. The lack of trails makes it a more wild and special place. If a trail were to form it's just another place accessible by a trail.

[Randito]

People can be irrationally territorial about "sekrit" routes -- even when it no big "sekrit" and even when there is no danger of "trail formation" -- One example of that was one time I was invited on a "sekrit" ski tour in the Snoqualmie Pass area with the admonishment: "If you tell anyone about this or post it on T-A-Y, I'll kill ya" -- We followed the route and partway through the day, I was -- "so where is the "sekrit? I first skied this route back in the '80s and you can spot the line from the freeway!"

[DIYSteve]

Nobody is talking about secret routes. All of the plausible routes -- by description -- into the subject areas have been posted on NWHikers. They are not secret. Please people, stop with the false attributions. Posting a text description is very different that posting a red line route on a map. The latter certainly poses more of a threat of trail formation in this Age of the GPS. Nice anecdote re the ski tour, but not sure what it's got to do with this thread cuz tread formation is not an issue on a mid-winter tour.

[AlpineRose]

Tell that to the elk, who don't need no red line to make a trail.

[DIYSteve]

I already acknowledged the presence of animal treads up there. They won't get you where you want to go. Elk? I haven't seen any ungulates there.

[Malachai Constant]

I first learned about the Alpine Lakes High Route from the map in the Brown Beckey.

[Tom]

The concern isn't necessarily about revealing sekrit places. More about what is left to the imagination and the target audience. Compare Beckey's CAG to the 100 Hike and 75 Scramble series. Beckey's GAC is tailored to those with some imagination who are willing to piece things together without focusing them on specific destinations. The 100 Hike and 75 Scramble type series focus readers on specific destinations with details that don't necessarily leave much to the imagination.

[Randito]

[DIYSteve]

Your armchair psychological analysis about motivations those objecting to publishing red line routes is dead wrong. Amusing, though. Again, for the umpteenth time this is not about preserving secrets. Published red line or GPS bread crumb routes do contribute to tread formation, and tread access changes the nature of places that did not previously have them. I have personally seen it. Maybe it's not a big deal in a place that's already got a tread or a standard Bulger list route (which is gonna get stomped out by OCDers in search of a tag), but definitely published waypoints can permanently alter a place like Bacon/Hagan/Blum.

[Malachai Constant]

I haven't see the new edition of Scrambles but I know the old one had plenty of room for interpretation because many of the routes were in error . Routes and Rocks literally had maps (15 min) with the routes overprinted in red. Later I learned that the authors had only scouted many of the routes from a helicopter rather than walking them. The newer Beckeys have pretty detailed beta. Washington Trails is actually often more accurate than lines on a map because they are actual GPS tracks (accounting for local conditions) rather than interpretations from old trail surveys and aerial photos. Unfortunately with the tubes of the internets you can not have Manning and Spring keeping secret routes out oft their books which were the main source of info back in the day. Which is one of the reasons I do not publish detailed trip reports anymore.