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RodF
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Joined: 01 Sep 2007
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Location: Sequim WA |
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RodF
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 Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:13 pm |
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| Kim Brown wrote: | | 2,000 miles of road for a forest of 618,000 acres is a lot of road. |
Plus there are a few hundred miles of uninventoried roads, not shown on any map. Two areas known to have many are the Calawah (Forks Fire salvage, 1951-1956, steep terrain) and Satsop drainages (Shelton "sustained yield" unit, level terrain). Most are in units logged before the 1960s.
The only way we'll find them all is if the forest is eventually mapped by LIDAR. Which would be worth doing, as these roads also have culverts that fail, cause debris flows, slides, and interrupt waterflow in wetlands.
"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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Ski
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Joined: 28 May 2005
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Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:13 am |
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so?
the road to the trailhead is open.
besides, it's not on ONF land, which is what this tread is about.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11277 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:23 am |
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What is the budget for decommissioning?
I'm curious. 1 to 2 million to maintain all roads doesn't seem like much when compared with money thrown into fires, and spendy decommissioning.
The fire madness has already begun.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Kim Brown
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
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It’s not all about you (the collective “you”) and your road; there are a lot of people out there who want all roads closed, or some roads closed – it’s their national forest, too.
There’s more to it than initial cost. Roads do degrade the environment somewhat. Some more than others, some not at all. But overall, they do. Part of the FS mission is maintaining healthy watersheds, retiring un-needed roads makes sense, at least to me it does. Defining “un-needed” is what this process is all about. The USFS wants to analyze the road system, and public input is critical.
It’s predicted that maintenance costs will rise. Once a road is decommissioned, maintenance dollars stop. When a road remains open, maintenance dollars keep racking up. The USFS manages for climate change, and current models show flashier floods and more fires, which in turn create flashier floods, rendering the current road system antiquated (don’t attempt to beat me up about that, I’m just the messenger).
This is an analysis, it’s not a decision-making process. There’s no money set aside for any implementation.
If folks want to blow it off as a waste of time and not participate, that’s their choice. But maybe participating isn’t a waste of time. Attending one public event, or answering some survey questions on-line isn’t a big deal to me, and I’d rather participate than not.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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RodF
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Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 2593 | TRs | Pics
Location: Sequim WA |
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RodF
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Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:48 am |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | What is the budget for decommissioning? |
Legacy Roads and Trails is budgeted at $38 million, and can be used both for decommissioning or improving roads. That treats almost 1% of the USFS road system each year.
Commercial timber sales fund both road improvement and decommissioning. (Currently, the Queet Thin is open for public comment. It would improve 16 miles and decommission 6 miles of roads.)
USFS has also assembled project funds from a variety of grant sources (state, EPA, etc) but these have been cut, too.
| Kim wrote: | | ...flashier floods, rendering the current road system antiquated |
The USFS road system simply doesn't meet current road standards. Compare any recently-built or improved DNR or private forest road, and see there are twice as many culverts, and each one is twice as large. And the inboard ditches and catchments are twice as large. And the culverts are plastic, and won't rust out in 30-40 years.
I think most of the catastrophic road failures in Olympic have been caused by undersized culverts, or blocked culverts (mostly due to unmaintained catchments & ditches, only a few have rusted out and collapsed). And I can show you places where culverts have caused slumps or slides downslope by concentrating storm runoff (needed more culverts to disperse the water over a larger area of the hillside).
"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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Kim Brown
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
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The Legacy reports are good for learning about roads and damage. Also WSDOT's website is good.
There are 2 volunteer organizations in the MBS that clean culverts, report culvert, road and other road conditions reports to the roads guy, clear ditches and remove vegetation that will potentially end up in culverts and ditches. This has been a tremendous help to the 2 Districts they work in, and a big money saver.
The hope is to reduce damage to roads by blocked culverts, and environmental damage to streams. Their work is not a guarantee the roads they work on will be retained in perpetuity, but it does show there is public interest in keeping roads open.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11277 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:43 am |
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| Kim Brown wrote: | | It’s not all about you (the collective “you”) and your road; there are a lot of people out there who want all roads closed, or some roads closed – it’s their national forest, too. |
Uhhh, don't we have some say or "input to the analysis" which those of us who took time last year to go to an evening meeting, some still in smelly rigging clothes, and were led to believe was a process for PUBLIC (us) comment?
I guess we were right to be cynical. You verify that our comments mean nothing. The meetings are merely feel good cuz we got to say stuff. That's how you are spinning it.
I'd say the majority of citizenry doesn't even know we have National Forests, much less roads, so if you want to go by what all the country wants, they don't give a rip. So we ought not to do anything...
In one paragraph you are saying it isn't a vote, then in this one you are saying that we need to do what the majority of people want. What is it?
I don't have MY roads. I have roads that I hope hold together long enough so I can get to berry picking areas. I'd like to see matrix roads not decommissioned. Those areas are supposed to be managed for timber use, but our area experts seem to choose those areas to decommission roads in. I believe it is because the areas are closer to the office and easier to get to. Because of decommissioning matrix area roads, stands of timber that are now ready for harvest must be helicopter yarded or left alone. The latter seems to be the feasible alternative. These are stands that have been planted and precommercial thinned.
Out of Florence, Oregon, the FS decommissioned a road that accessed other ownership. The decommissioning didn't cost much and was triggered by one slide--nothing unusual across the road. Hmmmm, then it was realized that another land owner had lost access to their land and a very expensive to build road had to be built on the ridgetop to access their land. Where was the analysis on that?
It was in the Misery Creek drainage should you want to phone and ask questions.
I hope the FS has their act together better up here. What seems to happen is that money is suddenly available and roads have to be found to use that money on in a hurry before the money goes away. That's real life, not a talking point.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Kim Brown
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
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| treeswarper wrote: | | In one paragraph you are saying it isn't a vote, then in this one you are saying that we need to do what the majority of people want. What is it |
I said nothing about majority rules and that comments mean nothing. How in the world do you come up with this stuff? 
Because the majority of posts on this thread is about keeping roads open, I'm pointing out that people who want roads closed have a say in the process, too. And everything in-between. This process will bring up a large spectrum of ideas; it's not just open or close roads.
This process makes no decisions. It provides a framework so the USFS has an understanding of use pattern on the forest, and has input from interested persons about what they would like the Forest Service to consider when it comes down to choices. But they don't have a true use pattern if people don't participate, and they don't have an idea of what the public would like to see.
Participating means to read, understand and listen to the purpose of the project, its history, and the process.
Talking to other participants and listening to their ideas is not required, but I do that. I find it interesting, and I've learned a lot from it.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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HumpnoocheeGirl
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Joined: 03 Feb 2011
Posts: 335 | TRs | Pics
Location: Grays Harbor |
It's too bad we don't have the option of "user maintained" roads like there are trails. Of course, there would have to be some over sight for proper maintaining. But, I like the idea myself 
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