[Chief joseph]

My comment was a general statement as to the lack of discipline of our children in America today, i did not say that was the case with this individual who did the shooting. However, if you think that many parents today are not afraid of retribution from discipling their children, then you are sadly out of touch.

[tmatlack]

All, Shifting away from the MPHS tragedy is something I've noticed in 27 years of teaching high school that has me perplexed. In my opinion, something has shifted teens' peer interactions and perceptions through the use of social media/smartphones. Most of the major, in school disruptions/threats/harassment I have been involved in the last 10 years have come through social media outlets, many times starting out of school and showing up in the halls/classrooms, etc. What is so different between digital communications and "gossip?" Tom

[Daryl]

[LewisGoes]

[DIYSteve]

[Daryl]

Agreed there is no simple explanation. I wish I could share all I know though... Twitter and bringing the gun to school, no matter what else happened, tells me at the least they weren't very good parents. My parent weren't great (not bad, just not great) but there is no possible way I'd have been able to have a twitter feed like that or bring dad's gun to school.

[MtnGoat]

I have a tough time getting my head around the social pressures kids must deal with today. Back in the days before digital dirt, adolescence was struggle enough with the social scene, your own identity, the issues of school gossip and complicated and new feelings, etc. But there was breathing space in these things anyway, because no matter how fast the phone or friend grapevine was, it had nothing on twitter and facebook, and photos, if taken, took two weeks to get back. Now you snap a shot, and post. I think the social network stuff amplifies the immediacy of the angst and uncertainty, and it's there for the entire world to see the instant it goes up on twitter or facebook, for better or worse. Given the teen mindset and intense concern with what other people are thinking and pressures of conformity, even self imposed, the self reinforcing nature of instant communication, rumor, slander and all the rest is a real powder keg for people who don't even know who they are yet or how to handle all the feelings rushing into their heads.

[Tom_Sjolseth]

I'm no investigator, but I would wager this had something to do with a girl and social media. Not to oversimplify, it's obviously a lot more complex than that. I did have a look at the victims' FB pages (at least one of them has since been taken down) and I noticed they were voting on girls (hot or not, etc - Google "WCM" [Women Crush Monday] and "TBH" [To Be Honest]). These aren't healthy phenomena IMO. Cause of the problem? Probably not, but it points to a bigger issue (like what MtnGoat alluded to concerning pressures of conformity and school gossip being instantaneous and permanent and reaching the widest possible audience). The act of shooting another human being out of anger definitely involves some sort of at least temporary insanity. This kid faced some problem that felt overwhelming to him, couldn't cope with it, didn't have anyone to turn to for help besides Twitter, and killed some of his classmates as a result. If that's not a mental health problem, I don't know what is. The question is how could this have been prevented, and what can we do to prevent the next one (there will be a next one). Mental health screening in schools? Mandatory uniforms? Nothing at all? I realize I'm reaching here, but I don't have the answers. One thing for sure is if this kid was able to get a handgun without breaking into a locked house, or safe, or by stealing it off someone's person (ie, if it was just laying in a closet somewhere and not locked up), then someone needs to be held accountable for letting that happen. It is in the media that the pistol belonged to a family member, who knows if that is true. The main thing though is that if a child (or anyone else) is hellbent on causing mayhem and destruction, there isn't a whole we can do to stop them unless we know of the problem ahead of time. That's quite the conundrum. Such a sad story all the way around, and my heart goes out to the victims and their families and friends (and the rest of the people who either had to witness the event, or are otherwise traumatized in the aftermath).

[DIYSteve]

Yeah, looks like it might have been a love triangle thing, although as Tom says that might be only 2% of the story. The victims were friends/relatives of the shooter. That makes it no less tragic, of course. Re forecasting potential shooters, it's nice in theory, but how could that be done? Lots of non-violent teens post uberviolent sentiments online, yet some of these shooters manifested few signs. IME, a good percentage of teenage boys show ostensible signs of violent instability at one time or another, but only 1 in 1,000,000 of them will actually try to murder somebody. I heard an expert on NPR this morning. He said that about the only common thread in these tragedies is that the shooter was in a state of rage, but he also acknowledged that there's a spectrum from simmering rage (e.g., Columbine) to obvious boiling rage. The propensity to manifest rage cannot be the test, lest we would need to lock up most high school football players. As former adolescent boys we know that hormones rushing through our bodies can trump rational though and blur any consideration of the consequences of our actions. A substantial percentage of teenage boys are unstable and unpredictable. I know because I was one of them. Re Tom's suggestion that there ought to be accountability for the owner of the .40 handgun that was used in the killing, I agree that the law should provide for such recourse where the owner was negligent (or worse) in safeguarding the firearm. But such criminal laws do not exist and will never exist so long as the modern NRA lobby bullies state legislatures.

[Foist]

[Chief Joseph]

[Stefan-K]

While I agree with you that discipline is essential and often lacking by non-caring or over-indulgent parents, I completely disagree that spanking has anything to do with productive discipline regardless of whether it's public or private. Unless you want to send the message that it's OK to hit someone when you disagree, spanking doesn't seem to add up to much. There are many other forms of discipline that don't entail hitting. And I think it's also important to let the child know why they're being disciplined. For me the overriding priority is to maintain a loving relationship with your child so that they are not afraid to open up to you in times of need. Especially extreme emotional need. This involves a lot of trust. The shooter in Marysville apparently didn't have this outlet when it really mattered. No opportunity to constructively vent some very strong emotions to another human being. Not that for most people this results, as Tom mentioned, in the extreme actions that occurred. But especially for the more volatile amongst us it is important that there is a confidant; someone to whom we can safely share and vent emotions that may not always be socially acceptable. That said I don't think there's any way to universally legislate or implement this other than to hope that we all keep it mind. As for modern media and technology: nobody talks about this but I think it contributes to the school shooting problem: that is that there's a direct correlation between the 'comments' section of any website and SEO (Search Engine Optimization). In other words the more comments a posting (news or whatever item) generates, the better it ranks in search engine results. With everyone always trying to get to the top of the pile I think this is a major technological problem since it caters to sensationalism and extreme drama to bolster ratings to the detriment of more even-handed and sober reporting.

[Daryl]

[DIYSteve]

That's the Jenna Carlile case. Her 3 y.o. sibling shot her to death with a .38 Special revolver that was in the cup holder of Marysville PD officer Derek Carlile's car while he went shopping and left them in the car. He was charged with 2nd degree manslaughter but the jury deadlocked and the SnohoCo prosecutor decided to not retry and dropped the case because they figured that they'd never get a conviction from a SnohoCo jury. So, thanks to 7 SnohoCo jurors, Derek is a free man notwithstanding that he left his 3 y.o. and 7 y.o. kids in his car with a loaded handgun in the cup holder. His excuse: He was late for a wedding. He's also gainfully employed, having been recently reinstated with the Marysville PD. Jenna is dead. The 3 y.o. is screwed up for life. Ah, justice In the Kitsap Co. case, the school paid out $1,000,000 and the gun owner agreed to pay $300,000. No criminal charges AFAIK.

[reststep]

I was wondering the same thing when Steve posted that. In the case in Kitsap County where the gun went off in the backpack the prosecutor tried to bring negligent charges against the gun owner but the state supreme court ruled against that. From article in Kitsap Sun July 17, 2014 "OLYMPIA — Kitsap County jurors won’t hear a felony assault case against a man whose gun, left loaded and out in the open, was taken by a 9-year-old boy and then accidentally discharged in 2012 at a Bremerton elementary school, seriously wounding a girl. The state Supreme Court ruled Thursday in a 6-3 opinion that the third-degree assault case against Douglas Bauer could not move forward, reversing an earlier Court of Appeals decision. State law says someone whose criminal negligence “causes bodily harm to another person by means of a weapon or other instrument” is guilty of third-degree assault. “This court has found no Washington case upholding such liability, either, where the accused did not actively participate in the immediate physical impetus of harm,” Justice Sheryl Gordon McCloud wrote. Bauer’s appellate lawyer, Wayne Fricke, argued earlier this year that the Legislature had not drafted a law specifically addressing the issue, a situation the minority called “novel.” Fricke said he and his client felt vindicated by the ruling. “There should have never been a criminal charge in this case in the first place,” Fricke said. The boy told investigators he had taken the gun off a dresser at Bauer’s home two days before the shooting out of fear that other children were planning to assault him, according to court documents. The court wrote that Bauer did not know the handgun was missing until the shooting. Other unsecured, loaded firearms were found in the Allyn house where Bauer lived. The boy is the son of his then girlfriend. The boy did not live in the house but visited, along with other children. The gun accidentally went off February 2012 at Armin Jahr Elementary School, critically injuring fellow student Amina Kocer-Bowman, then 8. She survived after undergoing several surgeries. Prosecuting Attorney Russ Hauge said he was disappointed in the ruling, and attorneys were considering whether to bring another charge against Bauer. If convicted of third-degree assault, a felony, Bauer would be prohibited from possessing firearms. “It was the closest ... to describing what he did,” Hauge said. The court’s decision hung on how “cause” is legally defined. Hauge said the decision, because it has the force of law, could lead to confusion in other cases around the state. The court ruled Bauer might have been negligent, but it did not provide a legal test or guidance, so Hauge said the job of clarifying the law would have to be taken up by the Legislature. “With this decision, the only person directly responsible is a 9-year-old boy,” Hauge said. “I still think that is just not right.”" Link to article, but I think you have to have a subscription to read it.