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treeswarper
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PostWed Jun 14, 2017 8:55 am 
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Ski wrote:
.... still wondering how they support the claim that Grizzly Bears were living in the North Cascades 20,000 years ago when the Cordilleran Ice Sheet was still covering the entire northwest.

.... maybe they were ice-fishing bears?


They ate snowberries. ( Parhrump and cymbal crash)

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MtnGoat
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PostWed Jun 14, 2017 10:45 am 
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Ski wrote:
.... still wondering how they support the claim that Grizzly Bears were living in the North Cascades 20,000 years ago when the Cordilleran Ice Sheet was still covering the entire northwest.

.... maybe they were ice-fishing bears?

Good catch, ski. I didn't notice that.

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RumiDude
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PostWed Jun 14, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Ski wrote:
.... still wondering how they support the claim that Grizzly Bears were living in the North Cascades 20,000 years ago when the Cordilleran Ice Sheet was still covering the entire northwest.

Maybe they are referring to the area between the Puget Lobe and the Okanogan Lobe of the Cordilleran Ice Sheet, which is considered the North Cascades.

Rumi

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Ski
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PostWed Jun 14, 2017 1:25 pm 
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maybe.
or.... maybe like so many other baseless assertions made by Center for Biological Diversity, they're just following their usual pattern of just making stuff up as they go along.

where have they provided archaeological evidence to support such a claim?

the larger question, though, is why these people are allowed to continue to spout the kind of nonsense that they do, and virtually nobody questions the veracity of their claims?

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drm
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PostWed Jun 14, 2017 3:57 pm 
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This is from Wikipedia. The color that extends down into Mexico is listed as "Historic" range.

Quote:
In North America, grizzly bears previously ranged from Alaska down to Mexico and as far east as the western shores of Hudson Bay

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Ski
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PostWed Jun 14, 2017 6:03 pm 
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^ Well.... that's all fine and well, I suppose, if you're going to take "Wikipedia" as a definitive source.
The YouTube video, cited on the previous page, opens with the following statement:
"Grizzly bears have lived in the North Cascades for 20,000 years. Today, fewer than 10 of them remain."

My question is: Where is the evidence that Grizzly bears populated the North Cascades over the course of the last 20,000 years when it is documented by peer-reviewed papers that the area was covered with a layer of ice up until about 12000 years ago?

I watched the entire video; 13 minutes and 33 seconds of my life that I'll never get back, to be told what a great success story it is that they're able to translocate Grizzly bears into the Cabinet range in northwest Montana- an area geographically and ecologically isolated from the North Cascades. What is this great "success" that's been achieved by moving bears around? Was the overall ecosystem suffering some dire detrimental effects in their absence?

Or am I to just take the words of the three-year-old girl in the video that "bears are good"? (What could a three-year-old girl possibly know about bears and their effect on the ecosystem? Why are the producers of this video wasting my time with such mindless pap?)

I've wasted more than enough of my time poring over various documents - peer-reviewed papers - regarding the reintroduction of the Gray Wolf, engaged in far too many pointless and non-productive arguments about wolves, and in general had a belly full of the nonsensical propaganda being foisted off on the general public about wolves.
Now, the same groups (Center for Biological Diversity, Conservation Northwest, ad nauseum) are back yet again insisting we need to muck about trying to "correct" some perceived "problem".

The Washington State Wolf Management Plan has been in effect for over ten years. Other than creating enmity among neighbors and costing the taxpayers millions of dollars, where is the benefit being realized?
Please cite for me one example within Washington State where the putative "trophic cascade" touted by Beschta-Ripple (OSU) has been "corrected" to any significant degree by the introduction of the wolf. Where are all these riparian zones that are miraculously recovering? Where are the rebounding runs of anadromous salmonids?

The Grizzly bear deal is not one bit different; it's being sold as another "majestic" animal to an unwitting public that stupidly reaches into their wallets to send more money to these organizations so they can continue to exist. They benefit in the form of monetary contributions while the rest of the general public picks up the tab in the form of increased costs of wildlife management. They payoff people get for mailing in their checks is some sort of warm-and-fuzzy feeling because they're too stupid to realize they're being hoodwinked.

If the Gray Wolf isn't a good enough example, how about the Mazama Pocket Gopher? A tiny little ground burrower, it's been the cause of all kinds of grief now for almost 20 years, effectively destroying the real estate market in Thurston County. People save up enough to buy their little piece of the American dream - a tiny five-acre parcel - to be told that they cannot erect a 20' x 24' pole barn on site, or build a fence, or grow a vegetable garden.

Where has the overall ecosystem in Thurston County suffered from what is perceived to be a decline in population numbers of a species that was never historically inventoried?

Respectfully, "Wikipedia" ain't gonna cut it.
Cite for me chapter and verse in a peer reviewed paper that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the Grizzly bear was actually in residence in the North Cascades continuously over the course of the last 20,000 years.
Morever, what I'd really like to see is any evidence that the ecosystem of the North Cascades has somehow suffered from some sort of dire detrimental effects in their supposed absence.
As has been mentioned, there are Grizzly populations north of the Canadian border. If those areas were/are suitable habitat, what's to stop a bear from wandering down and taking up residence? Who's going to stop them?
It's been clearly demonstrated in several western states that the Gray Wolf is perfectly capable, all on its own, of expanding its territory by just wandering about - if Oregon's "OR-7" isn't clear enough evidence of that, I don't know what would be. Why is it assumed that the Grizzly Bear isn't just as capable as the Gray Wolf of expanding its territory all on its own?
What exactly is the impetus for wanting to translocate Grizzly bears into an area where they do not currently reside? What exactly is the purpose and need?

If you come back with "because they were there before", then it follows logically that we should also reintroduce Wooly Mammoths, Sabre-Tooth Tigers, Aurochs, and Tyrannosaurus Rex.

Interested only in Facts. Reality. Not in the least bit interested in "warm and fuzzy".

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RumiDude
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PostWed Jun 14, 2017 8:24 pm 
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Ski wrote:
Interested only in Facts. Reality. Not in the least bit interested in "warm and fuzzy".

Ski, it's ALL about "warm and fuzzy" on both sides of the argument. It always has been and always will be. Even your "warm and fuzzy" fretting over the property rights of Thurston County residents. It's an aesthetic of sorts.

In the end, almost every argument about stuff like this (endangered species, Wilderness regs, outdoor recreation, land use, etc) is an argument about whose "warm and fuzzy" takes precedence.

Rumi

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Humptulips
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PostWed Jun 14, 2017 10:51 pm 
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It's not about warm and fuzzy. It's about money, grant money from the government and donation monies to the advocacy groups not to mention legal fees if they can sue.
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RumiDude
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PostThu Jun 15, 2017 12:54 am 
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Humptulips wrote:
It's not about warm and fuzzy. It's about money, grant money from the government and donation monies to the advocacy groups not to mention legal fees if they can sue.

Well money is one of the things which makes people all "warm and fuzzy" inside. And that includes all those interested in resource extraction; like hunters, fishers, trappers, ranchers, miners, loggers, oil, gas, coal, utility companies, cities, etc. Oh yea, and all the advocacy groups for all those resource extraction groups.

Rumi

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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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PostThu Jun 15, 2017 6:54 am 
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Humptulips wrote:
It's not about warm and fuzzy. It's about money, grant money from the government and donation monies to the advocacy groups not to mention legal fees if they can sue.

Yes.  The former Southwest Center for Biological Diversity started out as just a couple of guys who couldn't afford the gas to actually go look at areas they were claiming were endangered.

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RumiDude
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PostThu Jun 15, 2017 10:55 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
Humptulips wrote:
It's not about warm and fuzzy. It's about money, grant money from the government and donation monies to the advocacy groups not to mention legal fees if they can sue.

Yes.  The former Southwest Center for Biological Diversity started out as just a couple of guys who couldn't afford the gas to actually go look at areas they were claiming were endangered.

In contrast to the moneyed associations and organizations which advocate for "hunters, fishers, trappers, ranchers, miners, loggers, oil, gas, coal, utility companies, cities, etc."

I'm not sure why some would think an organization like Center For Biological Diversity is somehow bad for advocating for its mission as opposed to all the industrial and recreational associations and organizations doing the same. And this advocacy requires money so they ALL get money somehow. They ALL use lawsuits and/or lobbying to advance their goals. Many get grants and/or generous donations from industry and individuals.

Just as an example, check out this A Directory of Forest Industry Associations in America. That's just one industry.

Back to the bears ... Just as some in this thread have basically said they simply don't want grizzly bears reintroduced, I think they should be. I like to think of a wilderness here in Washington where these bears can thrive. If it takes a bit of help from us humans, then so be it.

Rumi

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Bernardo
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PostThu Jun 15, 2017 11:18 am 
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The grizzly reintroduction plan that is being reviewed mentions that the population of grizzlies in the area in BC near the North Cascades is very small and not doing well. Begs the question as to how well they would do here if they are in decline there?

Would be nice to see fact-based answers to Ski's questions.
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Ski
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PostThu Jun 15, 2017 11:42 am 
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Yeah, well.... something tells me those answers aren't going to come from this crowd, and I have other irons in the fire and am kind of disinclined to start reading 900-page *.pdf files about bears.

So.... Rumi.... I take it from your comment above that you're okay with the idea of having organizations classifying themselves as 501C non-profits, supporting their operations from private contributions, and then availing themselves to the enforcement divisions of various public lands and public wildlife agencies to push forth their agendas, while trampling on the rights of private property owners?
Or are you suggesting that those advocacy groups working for timber companies are using those same tactics?

In the case of the Mazama Pocket Gopher, the US Fish & Wildlife Service has placed armed law enforcement officers directly across the streets of private property owners, keeping them under surveillance for days on end, to insure they don't go out and dig a fence post hole or plant a vegetable garden. (Videos available all over YouTube on this issue.)

Or maybe you're okay with the idea of "protecting" one animal - the California Sea Lion - the numbers of which were not in any significant decline but as a feel-good measure was added on to the 1974 Marine Mammal Protection Act (a bill originally intended to protect the California Gray Whale), while allowing another as yet unlisted species (but since added to the TES list) to be decimated. This was exactly what happened when the Northwest Ecosystem Alliance took the side of Herschel the Sea Lion at the Hiram Chittenden locks and thwarted every and all efforts by both State and Federal wildlife agencies to address the problem. In the meantime, a native run of anadromous salmonids were allowed to dwindle to a point of virtual non-existence.

I am not only not okay with the notion that such organizations are allowed to run amok and push their policy agendas that in the end serve no constructive purpose, but I object moreso to the idea that the costs incurred are borne by the US taxpayer.

Whether it's California Sea Lions or Mazama Pocket Gophers or Gray Wolves or Grizzly Bears really doesn't matter: The bottom line is that the leaders of these groups have made full-time careers hookwinking their constituents and passing the costs onto the US taxpayers, who in not one case have seen any tangible benefits.

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PostThu Jun 15, 2017 2:45 pm 
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Ski -

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RumiDude
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PostThu Jun 15, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Ski wrote:
So.... Rumi.... I take it from your comment above that you're okay with the idea of ...

Whoa! Ski you are assuming things about me and what I think which I have in no way indicated with what I have written. I would add that your description and evaluation of groups like Center for Biological Diversity is simply your opinion. I won't bother to debate that with you because it is a diversion from the topic at hand, the reintroduction of grizzly bears to the North Cascades.

Here is the issue I highlighted in response to the posts of Humptulips and Treeswarper concerning the Center for Biological Diversity, it has just as much right to advocate its mission as do all the industry and recreation groups do. Most of these other groups are focused on their own self-interest of resource extraction. And that means money! And as an aside, many of these associations/orgs goals negatively impact other people. Most of these other associations/orgs have waaaaaaay more money available than does CfBD.

The implication that environmental groups are money making schemes is absurd. They are doing what they do because that is what they think is good. On the other hand, a mining or logging association is expressly promoting their members' business interests, i.e. "show me the money". Unfortunately grizzly bears can not do this for themselves so interested people do it for them.

Rumi

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