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Ski
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PostWed Jun 03, 2015 11:30 pm 
who said anything about "cut a few trees"? if you've got a root fungus problem, you cut all the trees down and start over. that is the solution. ask a silviculturalist. I don't need to go look at Whidbey. the trees there aren't any bigger than any other "old growth" trees I've already seen, I can assure you. trees get old and they die. that's just how it is. they don't live forever. so, let me see if I got this right: your own "one solution for all" is to just continue closing campgrounds? please explain to me how that works 10, 20, 30, or 50 years down the road. Washington’s population grew from 4.1 million in 1980 to 6.7 million in 2010 and is expected to reach 8.8 million by 2040. anybody here try to get a reservation at a State Park campground for Memorial Day weekend? 4th of July? Labor Day? it's all fine and well to want to protect old forests and all that, but what's being missed here is that there are a whole lot of people who are "car campers". where are they supposed to go? or is it perhaps that because the purist hiker/backpacker doesn't give a damn about any user groups other than his own? again: (to be clear) closing campgrounds for the sake of saving "old trees" is a dumbass management strategy, and only a dumbass would support it.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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cascadetraverser
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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 12:00 am 
My o my.....I guess there is no point in adding my point that all your wisdom my not fall properly on the ears of the people of Whidbey island who have blocked these timber sales before. Cut away then!!!

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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 8:48 am 
who said anything about "timber sale"? I said "cut the trees down". use them for firewood if that works for you. keeping the campgrounds open should be the greater priority, but as has been mentioned above: some people are unable to see past their own immediate wants. but hey, if you don't give a rip about future generations having overnight camping opportunities in developed campgrounds - because eventually and inevitably all trees at some point get old and die - then by all means continue to support campground closures - as I said above, after a few decades, all the campgrounds will be closed and we won't have to have this discussion anymore. great way to plan for the future, don't you think? <edit> The Seattle Times article cited in the first post of this thread notes that it is a State Park. The people of Whidbey Island do not own it. The people of the State of Washington own it. It is, therefore, just as my my State Park as it is anybody else's State Park, so I really don't give a goddam what the people on Whidbey Island think.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 10:28 am 
Sad news - the old trees in that park are the reason I've gone back a few times after my first quick visit. That said, I'd rather see some cut than see the campground lost, even though I have no plans to ever camp there. I'm quite sure that even if it becomes "ugly" due to trees having been cut and replanted, it will still fill right up in high season. We need more beach access camping options in the state, not less. Take a look at some of the "parking lot" style private campgrounds near the coast that fill right up in the summer.
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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 10:48 am 
joker wrote:
I'd rather see some cut than see the campground lost, even though I have no plans to ever camp there.
I don't believe I've ever camped in a State Parks campground. Odds are I probably never will- I'm just not the "campground" type. Closing campgrounds to overnight use = less camping options for the public. At some point all trees get sick and die - just like people. Trees don't live forever. They cut a whole bunch of magnificent old-growth Douglas Firs in Pt. Defiance Park years ago. New trees grew back in their place, and people still go to the Park every day.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 10:51 am 
From: Ellison, Becki (PARKS) Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 2:31 PM Mr. Kirk: I understand your disappointment about the recent decision to close the South Whidbey campground for this season. No one at State Parks has been pleased about the prospect of closing the campground. However, opening the campground under current conditions would pose a significant safety risk. South Whidbey State Park is one of the few areas in the Puget Trough that still supports old-growth forest. Giant trees dot the park landscape, including the campground and day-use areas. Many of the unique features of old-growth forests, including accumulations of coarse woody debris and multi-storied stands, are the consequence of pathogen activities. Root rots, stem decay fungi, and dwarf mistletoes all increase with stand age. Stem decays, such as red ring rot (Phellinus pini), are more abundant in old forests, since the chance of trees developing infections increases over time. As a result, the incidence of decay can be very high in old forests. Trees become a potential hazard when there is a target. A target is a structure, vehicle or a person that would be struck by a falling tree or its parts. The target directly influences the degree of hazard. Trees near high use areas, such as a campground, are more of a risk than those near less frequently occupied areas, such as a trail, as the probability of a person being hit is greater. Campsites are potentially occupied throughout the day and night, creating an increased probability that someone could be struck. Pathogens play an important ecological role in shaping forest structure. However, they also create significant risks in developed park areas. In many cases, these old-growth trees are among the primary attractions at the park. Large falling limbs and/or trees are not compatible with people spending extended periods of time under these aging and decadent trees. As a result, the agency is sometimes confronted with a significant choice: 1) Remove the risk by cutting down the trees, or 2) Reduce the risk of public injury by removing developed facilities in these forest settings. In mid-April, Central Whidbey Area park staff expressed concern to State Parks Stewardship Program staff about the current condition of trees at South Whidbey. Recently, several large Douglas-fir trees in the campground had snapped, falling across a number of camp sites. A large number of additional trees exhibited one or more defects that suggest they could fail with little warning. Stewardship staff and the Washington Department of Natural Resources forest pathologist assessed developed areas of the park on May 1. Recent tree failures in the park appear to have been caused by advanced levels of heart rot in the stems of these legacy trees. The rot is caused by several species of native wood-decaying fungi that decomposed the integrity of the tree’s stem and large branches. This is a natural process that occurs in all old-growth trees as they approach the end of their lives. Many of the remaining old trees exhibit characteristics that suggest they, too, may have advanced levels of heart rot in their stems. In addition, pathogens causing butt rot and root rot were found in the area. The following pathogens raise safety concerns: 1. Fruiting bodies of Schweinitzii butt rot (Phaeolus schweinitzii) were commonly observed in the campground. Many of the cut Douglas-fir and western hemlock stumps also exhibited evidence of this cubicle rot. There is little reason to believe that most hemlocks and firs are disease free. This pathogen causes decay of the roots and lower stem. The resulting strength loss predisposes trees to windthrow and breakage. Schweinitzii butt rot is the primary cause of failure in old Douglas-fir. 2. Red ring rot conks were also common. This disease causes decay in the stem and may even develop into the large roots. It sometimes leads to mechanical failure of live trees, causing hazards in recreation sites. 3. Annosus root and butt rot (Heterobasidion annosum) was observed on several hemlock trees. Wounds in hemlock stems serve as access points for this disease. The majority of hemlock trees in the developed areas exhibit multiple wounds to their stems. In recreation areas, annosus-infected trees are often extremely hazardous, causing death or injury to visitors. 4. Laminated root rot (Phellinus weirii) was observed in several parts of the group camp area. This pathogen causes rot in the roots of host species. Sometimes, infected trees do not exhibit any obvious symptoms. On recreational sites, trees infected with laminated root rot have a high potential for failure and present a significant hazard to public safety. In the coming months, State Parks will be conducting a planning process to consider the future of South Whidbey. We will be looking for public input as we weigh the appropriate balance between providing safe recreational opportunities and protecting significant forest habitat. I hope that you will assist us in that endeavor. Sincerely, Lisa Lantz Stewardship Program Manager Washington State Parks and Recreation Commission 1111 Israel Road Olympia, WA 98504 (360) 902-8641

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 10:52 am 
I fully get the wish to let trees go on their own terms - I bet a lot of those "ready to die" trees could hang on for quite some time, and there is value to the ecosystem in letting "nature take its course." But if ever there was a case for taking them on our terms, this seems like it!

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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 11:05 am 
I do too, joker. I get that. I like big old trees just as much as any other big old tree lover. I make an annual pilgrimage so I can go see my favorite big old tree. I wonder every year whether or not that tree is still going to be there. The rootwad is undercut by the river. It could fall down any time. Will I outlive that tree? Or will it outlive me? But when it does fall down - which it most assuredly will - there will still be "forest" around it. It won't ruin the experience of those visiting that area. Odds are nobody will miss it - just another piece of LWD being recruited into the stream channel. Cutting the trees in a State Park, or the July Creek Campground in Olympic National Park, or at Pt. Defiance Park will not result in the ruin of the Park. It would be different, but it will still be a Park. Besides, what's lost here in this conversation is the fact that forests are dynamic - they change - they are not static. We're not talking about Bristlecone Pines here - we're dealing with Douglas Fir and Hemlock, and they have a limited lifespan.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 11:32 am 
apparently there are other State Park facilities (on the east side) with similar problems. it's not just Whidbey and Kopachuck. contact: robert.fimbel@parks.wa.gov he's the go-to guy on this deal - public meetings/comments/planning you want to be on his mailing list if you want to be part of this process.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 12:27 pm 
Ski wrote:
so I really don't give a goddam what the people on Whidbey Island think.
What a kind and considerate fellow you are. tongue.gif How dare the residents of Widbey Island care more about the preservation of the natural beauty of their home than for the availability of campsites for visitors! rolleyes.gif
cascadetraverser wrote:
Why can`t people sign a waiver to release the state from liability when they camp at such sites to keep the financial risk minimal for the state? Lawyers on the site, I would be curious to hear your input. They could also close the site to camping when the summer storms roll through.
up.gif This sounds like an ideal solution! An extra fee could be charged along with the waiver to cover the cost of issuing the waiver and to pay for the costs of potential lawsuits.

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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 1:23 pm 
I'm the one who mentioned the words timber sale. Depending on how much cull there is in the trees--that would be the most economical way to do it and might possibly even make some money for schools. The Schwenitzii (I can't spell it) or cow pie conk, ruins at least the first 8 feet of the tree or butt log. It's bad stuff. The rot is that dark red crumbly stuff you see in the old stumps sometimes. Sounds like these trees are on their way out, one way or the other. We could let them fall, stay in place, with NO maintenance done. That might discourage anybody from using the area, including the locals and be a show place for preservationists. I do camp in state parks. I don't mind the little city feel because my house is in the sticks and right now I can't even see any neighboring houses so I'm not there to get away. I go there for the nearby attractions--lake, weather, ocean, or visiting with friends. Right now the Warshington parks are getting a bit expensive and I'd hate to see them have to contract out the cutting of the park when they might even get people to pay to do it--a timber sale. That brings up the problem that most mills have downsized their equipment, as have loggers so getting large logs onto trucks and finding a mill to take them without penalizing the seller could be a headache. They might need to bring in some old busted up loggers as "consultants". I am assuming these trees are larger than 48" diameter. Lake Wenatchee is also cutting more trees. I have not been there for eons. Maybe this fall if they are done with the hazard tree removals.

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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 1:58 pm 
well, if they can sell it and make a buck, go for it. I can see where it might be problematic falling really big wood - they'll have to find a qualified sawyer - and then there's the issue of who (if anyone) has the capacity to handle big wood - that's why I said just cut it up and use it for firewood - they'd have a lifetime supply! - I believe the "waiver" suggestion was discussed above. it's a non-starter, because we're talking about the real world here, not some fantasy land conjured up in somebody's imagination. but by all means continue to dream away in dreamland. and the State Park is for visitors. those visitors no doubt include people other than the local residents.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 4:03 pm 
I bet there's some old big equipment somewhere. Maybe covered in blackberries, but it is there. Falling trees in campgrounds requires the neutralization of the magnetic fields. Buildings, tables, tent pads, pavement all have tractor beams which will make a tree fall on them if the faller is not alert to that fact. New pickups are doubly powerful. smile.gif

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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 4:30 pm 
joker wrote:
Cohokiller wrote:
The narcissist will die if we stop feeding it. All it wants is to be the center of attention. When it can't get it for positive reasons, it will get it through antagonism.
Ironic post of the week wink.gif
tongue.gif

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PostThu Jun 04, 2015 4:37 pm 
Ski wrote:
I believe the "waiver" suggestion was discussed above. it's a non-starter, because we're talking about the real world here, not some fantasy land conjured up in somebody's imagination. but by all means continue to dream away in dreamland.
They are very dismissive the danger it poses to other people of course because they aren't concerned about other people. On the other hand, they don't seem to believe anything bad could ever happen to themselves? Lack of life experience I suppose? At the same time I can't help but think those are the same type of folks who claim the rescued should have to pay for their rescue. Ah well. Such is life. Isn't that why we play in the woods? To get away from the duplicity of humanity.

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