Forum Index > Gear Talk > Permethrin
Previous :: Next Topic  
Author Message
DIYSteve
seeking hygge



Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 12655 | TRs
Location: here now
DIYSteve
  Top

seeking hygge
PostWed May 23, 2018 4:11 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Navy salad wrote:
there's a lot of contradictory information about Permethrin use. Some say the version with petroleum solvents shouldn't be used on synthetics (I've had zero problems with this); some say if it has petroleum solvents it shouldn't be used for clothing use at all; and some say the kind with petroleum solvents is the best to use because the solvents evaporate and allow the permethrin that had been suspended in a liquid solution to adhere better to clothing (this sounds plausible to me). Some say it quickly breaks down from sun explosure, while others say it is minimally affected by the sun.

FWIW, I've used the 10% Martins and 36.8%% Martins, both diluted to 1.0% - 1.5%, solution and sprayed or dipped. AFAICT they had the same effectiveness, same longevity and did not damage synthetic clothing (nor wool). OTOH, DEET can damage synthetic clothing.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schroder
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 5544 | TRs
Location: on the beach
Schroder
  Top

Member
PostThu May 24, 2018 11:31 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
A recent article on the usefulness of Permethrin:

Permethrin-Treated Clothing May Disable Ticks, Study Finds
CDC research suggests that wearing these items might stop the insects from biting you

Quote:
Now, a new study by CDC researchers has found that just a minute or two of contact with permethrin-treated clothing caused ticks to become incapacitated or fall off fabric.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
hbb
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 248 | TRs

hbb
  Top

Member
PostFri May 25, 2018 10:35 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
For what its worth, after looking over the respective MSDS's, it seems to me like the Sawyer spray contains roughly the same percentage of petroleum distillate that you'd end up with if you diluted the CSI/Martins 36.8% down to a 0.5% concentrate.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
DIYSteve
seeking hygge



Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 12655 | TRs
Location: here now
DIYSteve
  Top

seeking hygge
PostFri May 25, 2018 3:55 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schroder wrote:
Permethrin-Treated Clothing May Disable Ticks, Study Finds
CDC research suggests that wearing these items might stop the insects from biting you

Quote:
Now, a new study by CDC researchers has found that just a minute or two of contact with permethrin-treated clothing caused ticks to become incapacitated or fall off fabric.


New study confirming longstanding conventional wisdom. People, including the US military, for years have used permethrin-treated clothing for tick bite prevention.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schenk
Off Leash Man



Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 2282 | TRs
Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain
Schenk
  Top

Off Leash Man
PostTue May 29, 2018 12:15 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
I now have the Martin's 10% and I want to make about a gallon+ of 1% solution.
I am pretty sure I have this right, but if anyone wants to chime in and correct me:

So, to keep it simple, take 16oz of the 10% concentrate (1.6oz permethrin + 14.4oz carrier) and add 144 oz of water. That will give me 1.6oz of permethrin mixed into 158.4oz of carrier/water for a 1% concentrate, correct?

BTW: The odor is dramatically less with the Martins compared with the last stuff I used. Significantly less odor, and probably will be unnoticeable when it is dry. Thanks DIY Steve for mentioning this brand.

--------------
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
hatchetation
Member
Member


Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Posts: 22 | TRs
Location: Seattle
hatchetation
  Top

Member
PostThu May 31, 2018 12:29 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Yup - starting with a 10% concentrate by weight, that dilution will result in a 1% emulsion.

Another way to look at it - to dilute something by 10x, you're mixing one part concentrate to nine parts water. You could start with 12.8 oz of concentrate in a one-gallon jug, and just fill it the rest of the way with water to get a gallon of 1% solution.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schenk
Off Leash Man



Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 2282 | TRs
Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain
Schenk
  Top

Off Leash Man
PostTue Jun 05, 2018 1:25 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
So I treated my clothes with the  diluted Martins (diluted to approx a 1.5% concentration) and once the clothes were dry I noticed very small elongated crystals on the clothing.
I noticed their glint when the sun shined on them.
Got out the reading glasses and sure enough; very small crystals, long, almost cylindrical (except for what I assumed was the faceted surface that reflected the light) were all over all the clothing.
After 1 washing most of them were gone, but a few remained.
I did not notice them when using a petroleum based permethrin product, but I might have missed them.
Anyone else notice or experience this?

--------------
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
jstern
Member
Member


Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 19 | TRs
Location: Auburn
jstern
  Top

Member
PostSun Jul 15, 2018 6:24 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
I used the 10% Martin's and cut it to about 1.5%.  After treatment and letting the clothes dry, I also noticed the small crystals.
Did you wash the treated clothes before wearing?

--------------
"Adventure is just bad planning." - Roald Amundsen
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schenk
Off Leash Man



Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 2282 | TRs
Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain
Schenk
  Top

Off Leash Man
PostMon Jul 16, 2018 8:54 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Yes, I began with clean clothes too. It looked like the crystals were suspended in whatever Martin's uses as the carrier. I rinsed the clothes in the washing machine after treatment, and tumble died on "air only" and the crystals seemed to be removed/reduced.
I am a bit worried about what those little crystals are, and what they do when inhaled. It was obvious that they were not bonded to the fabric in any way and would continue to shed until they are all gone.
My guess is they are premethrin crystals, and it is being wasted because they simply fall off the clothing with physical action.
I hope my guess is wrong...but what else could they be?


I'll probably go back to the more stinky, but crystal free, petroleum based permethrin products after this. What ever martin's is using simply holds the permethrin in suspension, like water does. At least with the petroleum based products the permethrin is initially in a solution, and that is then held in suspension when you dilute with water...that's my thought anyway.

--------------
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
boot up
Old Not Bold Hiker



Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 4745 | TRs
Location: Bend Oregon
boot up
  Top

Old Not Bold Hiker
PostMon Jul 16, 2018 9:05 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Maybe I missed it in the description, but are the people having the crystals show up soaking the clothes in a pail of solution or spraying the clothing until damp?

I have not had any signs of crystal formation, but I just spray until damp. (wearing a respirator mask)

--------------
friluftsliv
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schenk
Off Leash Man



Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 2282 | TRs
Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain
Schenk
  Top

Off Leash Man
PostMon Jul 16, 2018 9:56 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
More info:
I sprayed my clothes, but the sprayer nozzle itself clogged with these crystals. Upon examination I could see a "cloud" of of these crystals in the suspension/solution I made (0% Martins, diluted with water to approx 1.5%) I would shake my sprayer but the crystals were heavier than water and sank to the bottom and were sucked up by the tube of the sprayer to the point of clogging the small sprayer head every couple minutes.
I also took some of my clothes and immersed them in the same solution with essentially the same result: the cloudy solution left crystals on the clothes.
In both cases you could see the crystals glint in the sunlight before the clothes dried.

--------------
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schenk
Off Leash Man



Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 2282 | TRs
Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain
Schenk
  Top

Off Leash Man
PostMon Jul 16, 2018 10:02 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Found this. apparently permethrin can be in crystalline form:
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/archive/Permtech.html

I also found one source that said it was soluble in alcohol (methanol, 300gr/L)...maybe it is better to dilute in alcohol before spraying or soaking clothes with it:
http://www.wefco-africa.co.za/userfiles/All%20Labels/Permethrin.pdf

--------------
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
jstern
Member
Member


Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 19 | TRs
Location: Auburn
jstern
  Top

Member
PostTue Jul 17, 2018 5:33 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
I ran my clothes through the wash, and then let them hang dry.  No noticeable crystals.  But, I'll have to keep an eye on the sprayer to see if it clogs up.
Thanks for the links!

--------------
"Adventure is just bad planning." - Roald Amundsen
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman



Joined: 24 Jun 2018
Posts: 44 | TRs
Location: Seattle
zimmertr
  Top

TJ Zimmerman
PostFri Jun 28, 2019 10:23 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Hi all, can anyone here share any anecdotes about their permethrin use if they have cats? I bought some a couple years ago and I carry it in my car for hiking/camping but I'm always scared to treat my tent/clothes with it out of fear of poisoning my little girl if she sniffs around my closet at home when I return.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Brushwork
Food truck



Joined: 18 Aug 2018
Posts: 348 | TRs
Location: Washington
Brushwork
  Top

Food truck
PostFri Jun 28, 2019 7:40 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Once itís dry, it shouldnít be toxic to cats.  Think thereís something about that earlier in this post.  Personally, I might hang or keep clothing that iíve treated separate from other clothes.

--------------
When I grow up I wanna play.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
  Display:     All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Forum Index > Gear Talk > Permethrin
  Happy Birthday North Cascades!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
   Use Disclaimer Powered by phpBB Privacy Policy