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graywolf
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PostSun Aug 13, 2017 7:04 pm 
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Navy salad wrote:
After wearing my permethrin-treated shirt on a hot, hard hike where I found myself sweating profusely, I couldn't help but wonder if the Permethrin-that-is-perfectly-safe-after-it-dries can partially re-liquify when it gets drenched with sweat and become no longer safe?

Probably a question for a chemist/pharmacist or other specialist, but feel free to chime in.

Permethrin is soluble in organic compounds, but not water, which is why you need to shake it when you're applying it to your clothing (it's not a true solution).  Your sweat is mainly water, sodium, potassium, chloride and some minerals, so the likelihood of it re-liquefying the permethrin is very unlikely.

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Navy salad
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PostSun Aug 13, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Thanks graywolf!
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DIYSteve
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PostMon Aug 14, 2017 10:02 am 
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graywolf wrote:
Permethrin is soluble in organic compounds, but not water, which is why you need to shake it when you're applying it to your clothing (it's not a true solution). Your sweat is mainly water, sodium, potassium, chloride and some minerals, so the likelihood of it re-liquefying the permethrin is very unlikely.

All of that sounds correct. Watering down 10% or 36.8% creates a suspension, not a solution, so be sure to occasionally shake the bottle while spraying. Once applied the clothing and thoroughly dried, it seems pretty stable, as evinced by effectiveness through numerous wearings, sweat-outs and washings.
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Schenk
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PostMon May 21, 2018 11:04 am 
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Reviving this thread, tick an skeeter season is upon us.

I ran out of Permethrin and need to find more. I have used the stinky brand and finally ran out.
I am looking for the lower odor brands and am having trouble finding Martin's online. The local Feed and Farm stores I have checked locally just carry a stinky brand.
I would buy any surplus Martins that anyone has, or appreciate being told of a good a current source, either online or a chain store that carries it (especially if there is one in Spokane!).

I did a google search and found other brands, but not specifically Martins Permethrin. I found Martins flea and tick treatment with other ingredients. I also found something I am not familiar with: Cypermethrin.
It appears to be quite similar to Permethrin, does anyone have experience using this? or comments on this?

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benjohnson
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PostMon May 21, 2018 11:21 am 
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>>I also found something I am not familiar with: Cypermethrin.

Stay away from that - it's safe it use as the package directs, but in mammalian animal trials it messes with their brains and makes their babies stupid.

It is related to Pemetherin, but the enzyme we have doesn't seem to work well on Cypermethrin.
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DIYSteve
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PostTue May 22, 2018 7:05 am 
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Schenk wrote:
I am looking for the lower odor brands and am having trouble finding Martin's online.

Martin's 10%; Martin's 36.8%

FWIW, I don't recall whether my Martin's 10% had less odor than my current 36.8% stuff (comparo after diluting to 1 or 1-1/2%). Maybe I'm not that sensitive to the smell. I leave the stuff in the sun for a half day after treating, and don't notice the smell after the first use.

I figured, as with many chemicals, there's only 1 or 2 plants that make permethrin. Does the odor come from the inactive ingredient?
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Schenk
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PostTue May 22, 2018 8:23 am 
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Thanks for the links DIY Steve. Weird, those didn't show when I did a search yesterday...but I could have missed them.
Since I had trouble finding someone with Martins in stock I sent an inquiry to the manufacturer of Martins asking if there was a Spokane retailer, or suggested online retailer, and received this response:

Ace Hardware should have it, if not Do My Own Pest Control online would be a good option.

Hope this helps others, have a great skeeter season!

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Navy salad
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PostTue May 22, 2018 9:02 am 
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DIYSteve wrote:
Martin's 36.8%

$131!!! I don't remember what I paid for this a couple years ago when I bought it from Amazon, but it seems like it was more like $20-$30. I'd suggest searching for a better price!

Here is a place that sells it for a little over $25
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DIYSteve
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PostTue May 22, 2018 10:06 am 
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Navy salad wrote:
$131!!!

Holy sh##. I didn't click on "see buying options." I too paid around $25
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Schenk
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PostTue May 22, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Here is a link to Do My Own Pest Control's search results for Martins Permethrin, prices are more reasonable:
10%:
https://www.domyown.com/martins-permethrin-10-p-2124.html

36.8%:
https://www.domyown.com/permethrin-sfr-368-p-445.html

Also, in reading the MSDS and SDS for these it sort of looks like the 36.8% uses a petroleum distillate as one of the ingredients, and the 10% doesn't mention petroleum distillates.

Now I see navy Salad posted a link to the same outfit, they have decent prices.

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Navy salad
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PostTue May 22, 2018 4:04 pm 
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Interesting that the "domyown" website specifically says: "Permethrin SFR is not labeled to be used in home lawns for mosquito control nor can it be used to treat clothing."; however, one of their Q&A's says:

     Q: Can I use Permethrin SFR on my dog? If so, how much product should I use per gallon of water? I just got a 3 yr old pit bull and he has lots of ticks.

     A: Yes, you can use Permethrin SFR on your dog. You should use fl. oz of product to 1 gallons water then thoroughly wet the animal to the skin with sponge or rag. Let drip dry.


Don't use it on clothing, don't breathe the fumes, wear rubber gloves etc when applying, yet it's perfectly ok to expose your dog to the wet solution?   confused.gif

They also say to use the permethrin solution within 24 hours after mixing with water! (I keep mine mixed in a plastic spray bottle and have found one spray bottle lasts a full season).
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DIYSteve
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PostTue May 22, 2018 4:55 pm 
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Not labeled? Who cares? EPA requires manufacturers and sellers to register lots of stuff, including permethrin, for certain uses. I'm not surprised that a seller of agricultural permethrin would omit non-agricultural use in its registration.

Every year diluted permethrin is sprayed on millions of cows, horses, sheep and pigs. Why not dogs? (Permethrin sprays and dips are available for dogs.) OTOH, cats do not metabolize permethrin, thus it can accumulate in a cat, attack the cat's nervous system and eventually kill it.
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Schenk
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PostWed May 23, 2018 8:04 am 
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I think that is possibly a "boilerplate" disclaimer.
If you click on the "Label" buttons of specific permethrin products you can see that some packaging/labeling gives instructions for putting on carpet and upholstery, others don't. Some have certain exclusions to their use that others do not have.
As far as I can tell EPA and labeling is tricky and one thing the warnings and exclusions depend  upon is the stated intended end use.

For example: You can buy permethrin containing products over the counter for application (on humans) directly to the skin and scalp. Their intended use is as a lice and scabies treatment, not a general insecticide.
https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/lice/head/treatment.html

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Navy salad
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PostWed May 23, 2018 11:04 am 
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DIYSteve & Schenk: Yeah, that makes sense. And what business is going to take on potential liability for "off label" uses? And actually, the fact that they say to go ahead and apply this stuff directly to your dog or to a scalp for scabies treatment makes me worry less about the potential ill effects from applying a "neurotoxin" (at least to ticks/fish/cats) to my clothing!

But reading up on this topic from other hiking sites (like Backpacking Light, Whiteblaze.net, etc) shows there's a lot of contradictory information about Permethrin use. Some say the version with petroleum solvents shouldn't be used on synthetics (I've had zero problems with this); some say if it has petroleum solvents it shouldn't be used for clothing use at all; and some say the kind with petroleum solvents is the best to use because the solvents evaporate and allow the permethrin that had been suspended in a liquid solution to adhere better to clothing (this sounds plausible to me). Some say it quickly breaks down from sun explosure, while others say it is minimally affected by the sun. Yada yada yada!
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hbb
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PostWed May 23, 2018 11:41 am 
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Navy salad wrote:
Some say the version with petroleum solvents shouldn't be used on synthetics (I've had zero problems with this); some say if it has petroleum solvents it shouldn't be used for clothing use at all; and some say the kind with petroleum solvents is the best to use because the solvents evaporate and allow the permethrin that had been suspended in a liquid solution to adhere better to clothing (this sounds plausible to me)

I've been curious about this issue as well. I've used versions containing petroleum distillates without any issues, and the treatment seemed to last well.

Do we have any resident chemists who can weigh in on this?
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