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joker
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joker
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 Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:38 pm |
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| Ski wrote: | | well... the public is fickle and ill-informed and prone to do really dumb stuff occasionally. |
On a statistical scale, yes, for sure. Which of course has consequences whether we're talking about logging policy or climate policy, whether we like it or not.
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nordique
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nordique
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Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:12 pm |
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| Ski wrote: | | well... the public is fickle and ill-informed and prone to do really dumb stuff occasionally.
I submit to you: Herman Cain.
part of the problem with any/all of these conversations having to do with forest management is that it seems a lot of people aren't able or refuse to make the distinction between different management agencies and private operators - they all get tossed into one pot, and the stuff that is most remembered is the bad stuff - management practices long-ago abandoned by both public and private operators.
in spite of changes in regulations and management practices, the same catch-phrases are regurgitated no less than 3 decades later.
perhaps not so much yet in this thread, but in others, and on other websites.
and I'm not singling you or Randy out, and tw and I are not always in lock-step in our views.
public polling data? funny.
I doubt the majority of the public has even an inkling of a clue about current management practices on either public or private lands. maybe (as has been suggested repeatedly by another member in another thread) they're all watching Fox news or they have some hidden agenda. |
True, but many of us hate to see clearcut after clearcut after clearcut--some of the worst of it to "provide money for schools"--way back when this area had far fewer residents and FAR fewer hikers, filling all our trailhead parking lots on weekends, and lining the approach roads for miles. Does that logging really pay its worth, given the need for more recreation for all the new residents in this area?
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treeswarper
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Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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treeswarper
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Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:48 am |
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| joker wrote: | | treeswarper wrote: | | Please answer this, is it acceptable ANYWHERE to have working forests and even clearcut when that is the best option? |
My opinion? Yes. Also, please carefully note Randy's words in cohokiller's quote of his post just above. Don't shoot the messengers. Your repeated attacks on the "immigrants" are somewhat sad and tired, btw (fwiw, not all the car occupants I heard decry the cuts along that otherwise scenic corridor were your "immigrants" - some in fact were born in the area; imagine that, they'd hang out with immigrants and cuss the in-your-face cuts!) However, I can understand why this topic would get you riled and reduce reading comprehension and logic etc. Truly I do. |
Please tell me why we are having to widen highways and cut what was once working forests (deforestation now) and build more housing developments? Oh, and schools which are partially funded by those horrible timber sales.
The increase in population from immigrants from elsewhere doesn't have any effects? Who are you kidding?
Another thread is on overpopulation. I'm not sure we are still overpopulating, but folks are migrating to what were once nice places, and causing deforestation. We are still using wood products, where are they to come from if you folks keep demanding that your views not be sullied by legal cuts on state land, and the cutting has almost halted on federal land?
Meanwhile, if the private land is close enough to a city, it is gobbled up for housing.
I am curious as to how much of this sale will really be affecting any trails or views. The propaganda is most likely an exaggeration.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:59 am |
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| nordique wrote: | Does that logging really pay its worth, given the need for more recreation for all the new residents in this area?
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It depends on the market value of the logs at the time the sale is put up. Timber is usually sold by an auction process.
Bid value is determined by how much it will cost to log it. Clearcutting is easier and more economical than other methods. Skidders are cheaper to use than skyline. Mechanized harvesting is the cheapest way to go. If a sale is simple, it will get more bids and higher bids and more profit for the state.
Make a sale complicated, and the profit will go down because more time is spent for less volume--like on thinnings. Loggers need to make payments on big equipment, insurance rates are equal to wages now (workman's comp), pay workers, and have enough to live on.
Loggers, mill workers, teachers, and Forest Service folks are the middle class of my community. Without that, I guess it would be another retiree/tweaker area or maybe Trustifundarian land. I think we are too far from a city for the latter to happen.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Jake Neiffer
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Location: Lexington, OR |
The logger I know works extremely hard- it seems he should be making a lot more than the folks you mentioned above. And years ago he was- but things have gotten much more difficult in recent years as you mention. Ironically he’s transitioned primarily to a wildland fire contractor- he makes a lot more money doing that nowadays. He’s got a number of fire engines, water tenders, dozers, etc. And sometimes fires even call for a feller buncher.
When loggers are not logging but rather forced into firefighting and our forests continue to deteriorate- it’s a sad state of affairs if you ask me.
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NacMacFeegle
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Signed the petition, hope it will do some good. I'll also write letters to the appropriate authorities, hopefully we can get this land protected.
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joker
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joker
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Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:56 am |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | The increase in population from immigrants from elsewhere doesn't have any effects? Who are you kidding? |
You are assuming I have thoughts and positions which I have not stated here, and which in fact I do not hold. You are shooting the messenger, I think. I have previously stated on this forum that I view roadside clearcuts in a similar way as fields of food crops. I also shared this thought with the i-90 car ride passengers back in the 90's. But I also see the political fallout of those particular cuts.
I fail to see the relevance of your immigrant comments, as we would need housing whether we moved here or stayed where you wish we'd stayed. Just like you and your family. I happen to live in a house that was built before the clearcut frenzy of the 80's. None of this changes the bigger picture here.
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Humptulips
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I often wonder why a cut cornfield or a plowed field is considered OK but a clearcut=bad.
The only distinction I see is time to green up. It is a cinch the clearcut has more wildlife diversity then the cornfield in the long run.
The old logging roads are a great place to go for a walk too. Probably be less crowding on those Park trails if people figured that out.
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Logbear
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Location: Getchell. Wash |
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Logbear
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Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:34 pm |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | Anytime there is a threat of more restrictions or a shutdown due to protecting something, tree cutting will speed up if the mills can handle it. |
So did the spotted owl speed up or slow down harvests?
“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
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Cohokiller
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| Logbear wrote: | | So did the spotted owl speed up or slow down harvests? |
Owls don't really have the physical strength to stop chainsaws and bulldozers, plus they're up all night and sleep all day like rockstars.
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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:18 am |
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| Cohokiller wrote: | | Logbear wrote: | | So did the spotted owl speed up or slow down harvests? |
Owls don't really have the physical strength to stop chainsaws and bulldozers, plus they're up all night and sleep all day like rockstars. |
Good one!
The owls could work during the night when the forest is under hootowl restrictions. 
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:23 am |
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| Humptulips wrote: | The old logging roads are a great place to go for a walk too. Probably be less crowding on those Park trails if people figured that out.
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Yes. I see more deer and grouse walking on roads behind the locked gates than on trails. Got a fair picture of an owl. It was hard to get the picture because of all the trees.
I'm heading up to pick berries in a former clearcut. Thanks to bough sales letting a bit more light in, and not so much success in survival of seedlings--the stand is stocked but not as thick as some, there are a few huckleberries to be had.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Logbear
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Logbear
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Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:07 pm |
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My question was actually a serious one.
I had always heard that the spotted owl curtailed timber cutting.
Or did the threat of closures due to the spotted owl actually speed up timber harvests?
“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
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Humptulips
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I believe it did on some stands but for a short time and I think it was offset by letting other timber stand that had no owls.
I think there was more of an effect when the RMZ setbacks came into being.
On the whole I don't think it was really that significant though.
No statistics just what I saw in the woods at the time.
I think what has really speeded up cutting is sales of timber land. Every new owner is in a hurry to get their money back.
If you read about a sale of a large block of forestland you can bet the new owners are looking to sell every merchantable tree as fast as they can.
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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:48 pm |
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| Logbear wrote: | | My question was actually a serious one.
I had always heard that the spotted owl curtailed timber cutting.
Or did the threat of closures due to the spotted owl actually speed up timber harvests? |
I noticed falling speeded up on federal sales that were under contract. If they could get the trees on the ground before the owl was listed, they could yard the unit in so more fallers were brought into sales at that time to do so.
The spotted owl did pretty much put an end to timber sales on federal lands covered by the Northwest Forest Plan.
The annual cut on the GPNF has been around 30MMBF, where it had been close to a half billion at the peak.
Thinnings are in vogue now.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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