[mike]

[Randito]

[Snowbrushy]

The NW already has a historical nation which was an actual dream that folks died for in their covered wagons to get to. Oregon Country. The dream came true - how soon we forget... Draw these map lines into your collective brains. It's real with real grave markers upon the trails.

[Jake Neiffer]

I don’t understand the desire to concentrate population to the cities and really limit rural development. People often complain about corporate farming and want greater access to local foods- well, I don’t think the overly restrictive regs are helping matters. Washington’s population density is still only about 105/sq mile. Compare to European countries- Germany for example is about 600.

[Randito]

[IanB]

[Bedivere]

From a purely practical perspective, concentrating populations into cities and depopulating rural areas makes some sense. As the population continues to grow, more and more demands are placed on natural resources and more and more food and other resources are required. Building on farmland makes no sense in this scenario. Instead, warehouse all the people in big clusters and use the surrounding land to grow food and manufacture other resources for them. More land available for farming would reduce the need for GMOs and harmful pesticides as well. Now- that's just the ultimately practical perspective, obviously not rooted in reality. Plus, it sounds like hell to me and I live in a city. I'm sure someone who lives in a rural area would like it even less. So the only other solution that offers any chance of preserving rural landscapes and farms is to stop the growth of the population. But that too is problematic on many levels. So, since there are no easy answers going forward I'll look back a little and relate that I can remember when much of Southcenter and Kent in the Green River valley was farmland. Paving over river valley bottoms for warehouses and roads and parking lots and retail outlets really makes very little sense to me, especially if we don't all want to be eating GMO high yield crops grown in a bath of Glyphosate. Shopping malls and warehouses and apartment and office buildings and factories, and every other kind of human structure should be built on marginal lands with low value for food production and fertile lands with good soil and convenient water supplies should be used to grow food or other plants and animals we need. Too bad we as a species are seemingly too shortsighted for such things.

[Randito]

It was interesting to see how cities, towns and farmland were structured when I was bike touring in northern Spain. Even fairly small towns had multi-story apartment buildings and the countryside was very rural. Not a lot of "sub-urban" development -- 1/4-1/2 acre lots with a single house. I think one could live in a small town in Spain without owning a car, that would be much more challenging in a small town in Washington.

[Jake Neiffer]

Did you get a feel for how large the farms were in Spain? Family farms or large conglomerates? I'm cool with keeping urban urban and rural rural. I guess I would just like to see a greater % of the population involved in agriculture than what we have in the US today.

[contour5]

[Jake Neiffer]

Ya, I hear what you’re saying. I don’t have a good solution to offer up on this topic- offhand I don’t like the idea of the govt interfering too much and generally think people should be able to live where they want to (Excluding preserves of course). But at the same time some of the suburban sprawl in a place like Colorado is a serious eyesore IMO.

[NacMacFeegle]

[DigitalJanitor]

[Lono]

I can speak only to the Basque Country in Northern Spain - I was surprised to find almost no hilltop development (private estates) allowed in hilly country. The origins of the policy go back most to limitations on water rights and use, and then a basic sense of fairness and equity - no one wants an estate or estates looking down and lording it over the rest of a community, much less surrendering water and water pressure to the overlords. All told the Basques would rather live in towns equitably and grow grapes for their Rioja. The most you might find anywhere near a hilltop is a communally accepted cider house. I think their effort works because they focus on maintaining a sustainable, high quality family-farm dominated agriculture with interspersed development. More than half the countryside is officially forested, and stays that way despite harvests. Devil must be in the details and beyond my view or understanding, but it is sure pleasant enough to visit and to live in. It works for now in this generation, as long as the next generation of farmers doesn't gallivant off to the EU for higher pay or rewards.

[coldrain108]