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Ski
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PostSat Feb 15, 2020 10:42 am 
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NikonHiker wrote:
The terrain is irrelevant. Radio waves behave the same everywhere.

Thank you very much for pointing out that the argument being used by DoD to support their need to use the airspace over the Olympic Peninsula is utter nonsense.

There is an existing facility in California which could be used for the same purpose, the airspace of which is not over a National Park.

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PostSat Feb 15, 2020 10:44 am 
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Oh... and this doesn't have a goddam thing to do with "NIMBY".

It has everything to do with the inappropriate use of the airspace over a National Park.

I'm sorry that doesn't seem to be registering with some of you.

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NikonHiker
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PostSat Feb 15, 2020 11:22 am 
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Ski wrote:
I'm sorry that doesn't seem to be registering with some of you.

Sort of, or maybe reasonable people can just disagree...

They already fly in the area and have done so for easily 60 years, their base is already nearby and I'm willing to bet that if the training were happening today no one would notice the difference.
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Schroder
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PostSat Feb 15, 2020 11:58 am 
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What you people don't understand is the increase in flights and the louder planes. I live 6 miles from Whidbey OLF and when we moved here 4 years ago they were flying 2-3 days a week during daylight hours and we hardly ever heard them. With the increase in planes at Oak Harbor, they'll soon be flying continuously 24/7 and outside the areas they were confined to.  I used to be thrilled to see them fly through the mountains on their occasional flight. Frequency and intensity makes a big difference.
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Ski
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PostSat Feb 15, 2020 12:16 pm 
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nikonHiker wrote:
"...he last issue that raised ire was the prospect of letting Army helicopter pilots use high altitude training sites within the Cascades..."

^ This is conflating two entirely separate issues. The proposal on the helicopter flights was in direct violation of the Wilderness Act of 1964.
Not even remotely related.

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PostSat Feb 15, 2020 12:18 pm 
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Schroder wrote:
What you people don't understand is the increase in flights and the louder planes.

I fully understand it.
I never heard these planes in the past when I was up in the Olympics or on the beach at Kalaloch.
Now it's all day, every day, all day, every day.

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Ski
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PostSat Feb 15, 2020 12:20 pm 
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nikonHiker wrote:
They already fly in the area and have done so for easily 60 years, their base is already nearby and I'm willing to bet that if the training were happening today no one would notice the difference.

60 years ago these aircraft were not noticeable up there.
Today it's every day, all day, every day, all day, every day, all day.

I've been hiking up there now for 61 years.

But feel free to argue with the voice of experience. I find it endlessly amusing.

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NikonHiker
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PostSat Feb 15, 2020 4:24 pm 
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Ski wrote:
nikonHiker wrote:
They already fly in the area and have done so for easily 60 years, their base is already nearby and I'm willing to bet that if the training were happening today no one would notice the difference.

60 years ago these aircraft were not noticeable up there.
Today it's every day, all day, every day, all day, every day, all day.

I've been hiking up there now for 61 years.

But feel free to argue with the voice of experience. I find it endlessly amusing.

LOL the arrogance. The voice of experience that apparently doesn't know that overflight by any aircraft of the Olympic National Park is perfectly acceptable and by comparison Whidbey NAS still has not returned to the volume and frequency of operations of the 60's and 70's. So go ahead, continue to live your reality in contradiction to the facts.
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PostSat Feb 15, 2020 4:49 pm 
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It just needs to be done somewhere else, and as Ski noted, where.....isn't his problem. Send it away so it's someone else's problem. Then the folks there complain, and the NIMBY issue goes round and round.

Yes, I hear the claim it's not NIMBY, but then we get the send it somewhere else message, which is a classic NIMBY argument.

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Schroder
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PostSat Feb 15, 2020 6:40 pm 
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NikonHiker wrote:
Whidbey NAS still has not returned to the volume and frequency of operations of the 60's and 70's.

You haven't a clue what you're talking about.
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Ski
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PostSun Feb 16, 2020 12:19 am 
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Neither of 'em do.  It's just noise.

Let me know if you hear any updates Rod.

Kalaloch Beach 3 082019 01
Kalaloch Beach 3 082019 01

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RodF
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PostSun Feb 16, 2020 1:04 am 
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Ski wrote:
This is simply NOT acceptable over the airspace of a National Park.

That is a perfectly valid opinion to hold, and to lobby your legislators* to enact into law.  But it isn't the law.

*the same legislators who have fought hard for decades against downsizing or base closures in the Puget Sound area, for extending Boeing's production of EA-18s, and for basing new squadrons here at NAS Whitbey... because they "bring home the bacon", thousands of jobs and hundreds of millions of dollars in the local economy.  And the noise, too.  But you're welcome to lobby them to close NAS Whitbey and base the EA-18s at NAS Fallon, Miramar or someplace else.


In case you've forgotten your previous long-standing position - that lawsuits are not the way, and the courts are not the place, to lobby for new laws - a reminder:

Ski wrote:
Maybe next time they decide to file a lawsuit against NPS or NFS they'll stick to a fact-based argument and take into consideration the other federal statutes that come into play on issues like this, instead of trying to push their "Wilderness Act of 1964 trumps all" agenda.

Note that the alternatives are to overfly North Cascades National Park's Stephen Mather Wilderness, the Pasayten, Henry M. Jackson and Alpine Lakes Wildernesses to conduct training in either Roosevelt MOA over Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest (see Special Use Permit to do so, not yet issued) or in Owyhee MOA over Owyhee and Jarbridge Wildernesses south of Mountain Home AFB, Idaho.

That is, export the noise over another park to other wildernesses.

In short, your argument is appears to be "Let them fly over your national park, over your wilderness area, but it's not acceptable over MY favorite national park".  That's quintessentially NIMBY... but it isn't the law.

Ski wrote:
Let me know if you hear any updates Rod.

Will do.

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PostSun Feb 16, 2020 1:41 am 
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^ No, they can move the operations to an already-existing facility in California where they do not have to fly over any National Parks.

Rod wrote:
"... your previous long-standing position..."

Wow, Rod. That quote is pulled out of a thread that concerned a Wilderness Watch suit filed against NPS regarding shelter reconstruction - a completely separate issue.
Moreover, you've simply either misinterpreted my statement or are trying to assign a different meaning to it.
Where does it say I'm opposed to any lawsuits?

Candidly, I'm amazed that you would do that.

This is a completely separate issue, and i'd tend to doubt the Wilderness Act of 1964 would even come into play here.

Rod wrote:
"...you're welcome to lobby them..."

I've learned after over 30 years of doing so that it's a complete waste of my time and energy. I would prefer to pursue other things with what little time i have left. I'll let Ferguson and his crew take them to task - he's intelligent and ambitious and clearly isn't willing to allow the smokescreen from the clowns currently running the circus to get in his way.

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PostSun Feb 16, 2020 9:09 am 
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"They" also train in the overlooked part of the west side.  Go up the 25 road south of Randle and find a vantage point.  Expect the roar anytime from 11 AM to 1PM.  They fly low so usually you can't see them because of the trees.  I've been told that it is quite startling for timber fallers who don't know about the flights.  It is a WTF moment while working on a tree.   

In the days of humongus yarders and long spans, we had to give Whidbey a list of units that would have cable logging occurring.  Now you must let them know if helicopters are logging in that area.   That hasn't been very frequent though.   

The Navy has no patience and will keep on asking, "Are they done yet?"

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PostSun Feb 16, 2020 11:53 am 
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Ski wrote:
No, they can move the operations to an already-existing facility in California where they do not have to fly over any National Parks.

Yes, they could.

But what they would be training in there is not coastal mountain conditions. You cannot simulate these different environments when flying, and our pilots deserve the most comprehensive real world training available.

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