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runup
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PostSun Feb 16, 2020 7:22 pm 
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RodF wrote:
Ski wrote:
This is simply NOT acceptable over the airspace of a National Park.

That is a perfectly valid opinion to hold, and to lobby your legislators* to enact into law.  But it isn't the law.

*the same legislators who have fought hard for decades against downsizing or base closures in the Puget Sound area, for extending Boeing's production of EA-18s, and for basing new squadrons here at NAS Whitbey... because they "bring home the bacon", thousands of jobs and hundreds of millions of dollars in the local economy.  And the noise, too.  But you're welcome to lobby them to close NAS Whitbey and base the EA-18s at NAS Fallon, Miramar or someplace else.


In case you've forgotten your previous long-standing position - that lawsuits are not the way, and the courts are not the place, to lobby for new laws - a reminder:

Ski wrote:
Maybe next time they decide to file a lawsuit against NPS or NFS they'll stick to a fact-based argument and take into consideration the other federal statutes that come into play on issues like this, instead of trying to push their "Wilderness Act of 1964 trumps all" agenda.

Note that the alternatives are to overfly North Cascades National Park's Stephen Mather Wilderness, the Pasayten, Henry M. Jackson and Alpine Lakes Wildernesses to conduct training in either Roosevelt MOA over Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest (see Special Use Permit to do so, not yet issued) or in Owyhee MOA over Owyhee and Jarbridge Wildernesses south of Mountain Home AFB, Idaho.

That is, export the noise over another park to other wildernesses.

In short, your argument is appears to be "Let them fly over your national park, over your wilderness area, but it's not acceptable over MY favorite national park".  That's quintessentially NIMBY... but it isn't the law.


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Malachai Constant
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PostSun Feb 16, 2020 8:25 pm 
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First at all there is nothing wrong with NIMBY it is just good sense. There is no good reason to have it there except convenience of the brass, the trainees rotate in and out. There are good places in the southwest where they have been training since WWII. The electronics are there I know because I worked there. There is no one else there except jack rabbits, tortoise, a few one mule prospectors, and snakes. No hikers, Rangers, or residents. The ranges are fenced off from the public for good reason. The place looks just like Afghanistan other parts look like Saudi or Sinai. They do train over DVNP but it is a tourist attraction and fascinating to watch. For gods sake Atomic Bombs were tested there above ground no less.

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graywolf
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PostSun Feb 16, 2020 8:40 pm 
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How about "Don't fly over a UNESCO World Heritage Site"?

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Ski
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PostSun Feb 16, 2020 9:42 pm 
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runup wrote:
up.gif up.gif

happy to see you're agreeing with Rod's misinterpretation of a previous post on an unrelated subject.

Mtn Goat wrote:
"..blah blah... training in there is not coastal mountain conditions...blah blah...".

yeah.
years ago - probably about 20 now - when I spoke to a woman who called me who said she was the "Public Liason Officer" for the military at JBLM - she gave me some story about that - so yeah - I suppose that would come in real handy - I can see the need for training in those conditions - if we needed to go to war with Canada, or Chile, or Peru, or Australia, or New Zealand, or Norway.

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Malachai Constant
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PostSun Feb 16, 2020 11:05 pm 
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If there are hostile aircraft operating in the Olympics we have already lost. This is not 1939.

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Ski
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PostSun Feb 16, 2020 11:17 pm 
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The reasons given by DoD and the Navy for their use of the area are absurd at best.

The Atlas Mountains in Morocco are at least 100 KM inland. The highlands of Iran are anywhere from 150-200 KM inland.
Those areas around the globe which are potential "conflict areas" are nowhere close to having the same sort of topography as the western slopes of the Olympic Peninsula.
Unfortunately some people will believe anything the government tells them, regardless of its being completely ridiculous and without merit.

What was it Barnum said?

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PostSun Feb 16, 2020 11:24 pm 
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"It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled."

- attributed to Mark Twain (without any supporting evidence he actually said or wrote it.

"If you repeat a lie often enough, people will come to believe it and you will even come to believe it yourself."

- Josef Goebbels

(* Godwin had no clue what he was talking about. )

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MtnGoat
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PostMon Feb 17, 2020 12:22 pm 
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Ski wrote:
runup wrote:
up.gif up.gif

happy to see you're agreeing with Rod's misinterpretation of a previous post on an unrelated subject.

Mtn Goat wrote:
"..blah blah... training in there is not coastal mountain conditions...blah blah...".

yeah.
years ago - probably about 20 now - when I spoke to a woman who called me who said she was the "Public Liason Officer" for the military at JBLM - she gave me some story about that - so yeah - I suppose that would come in real handy - I can see the need for training in those conditions - if we needed to go to war with Canada, or Chile, or Peru, or Australia, or New Zealand, or Norway.

Blah blah, 20 years ago the gov't told me, blah blah.

What an intelligent way to handle disagreement...by treating disagreement like this. Could just quote the chunk you're responding to, but some part of you needs to include derision.

The idea that you should train people risking their lives based upon what is convenient rather than comprehensive shows the value hierarchy being applied to human lives.

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Logbear
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PostMon Feb 17, 2020 2:33 pm 
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https://www.heraldnet.com/news/anti-noise-group-seeks-halt-to-growlers-at-coupeville-field/
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Ski
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PostMon Feb 17, 2020 3:23 pm 
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thanks Logbear. up.gif


(* love the way the recurrent response (like those posted below the article) is just "NIMBY". must be awful to have to exist in the echo chamber of the mindless. )

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MtnGoat
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PostMon Feb 17, 2020 8:04 pm 
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Interesting. Are folks who agree with you part of an echo chamber, or is disagreement on the basis of a common argument only an echo chamber when it's in opposition?  The linguistic angles on abusing disagreeing posters are kind of endless, aren't they.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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treeswarper
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PostMon Feb 17, 2020 9:39 pm 
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Perhaps they can do artwork there since they can't here.

The Penis Incident

It did kinda look like the Arby's hat though.

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cdestroyer
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PostTue Feb 18, 2020 6:46 am 
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Some years ago I learned that the navy training facility on whidbey island included a target/bombing range near coupeville. In order for the pilots to get lined up properly they used the top corner floor window of an apartment The old lady who lived there was most upset and filed complaints, to no avail.
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NikonHiker
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PostTue Feb 18, 2020 8:44 am 
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cdestroyer wrote:
Some years ago I learned that the navy training facility on whidbey island included a target/bombing range near coupeville. In order for the pilots to get lined up properly they used the top corner floor window of an apartment The old lady who lived there was most upset and filed complaints, to no avail.

What did she complain about? The bombing range or that they lined up on her apartment?
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Feb 18, 2020 8:45 pm 
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According to one of our former Navy pilots they'd practice targeting bridges and dams on the Gorge run out to Boardman.

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