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contour5
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Joined: 16 Jul 2003
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contour5
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 Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:09 am |
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| Quote: | | The fisher will tell us what they like |
Yes. If we listen very carefully.
Worth noting that the document I quoted mentioned "late-successional forests", which may not necessarily be the exact equivalent of ancient woodland or climax-level old growth. Late seral may imply such a thing, but I'm not eggs ackly certain as I'm not a proper forester. Perhaps an expert will chime in?
Is there such a thing as pure, unadulturated 100% old growth? Aren't most of our existing old stands of timber kind of a mish-mash- multi-aged conglomerates of old and younger trees? There might be a cathedral grove of ancient grandfather trees surrounded by other trees of various ages: pockets of forest where various levels of disturbance such as fire, bug infestation, windthrow and even volcanic pocky clipses have had their way with the trees?
I'm guessing "late-successional" may include trees that weren't born before Lewis and Clark came floating down the river.
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Kim Brown
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| contour5 wrote: | | here might be a cathedral grove of ancient grandfather trees surrounded by other trees of various ages: pockets of forest where various levels of disturbance such as fire, bug infestation, windthrow and even volcanic pocky clipses have had their way with the trees? |
That is what an old growth forest is. The name "old growth" is just words.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Snowbrushy
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Joined: 23 Jul 2003
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So, the bottom line is that the critter is still being studied. I believe that we all would all be dumbfounded to see the actual numbers of Fisher that the Hudsons Bay Company trapped out here.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?
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Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?
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Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:03 am |
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Whatever happened to all the gloves they made out of them?
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Snowbrushy
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Maybe at the British Museum? They made coats too.
 Fort Nisqually bastion and extra entrance
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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Snowbrushy
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| Bedivere wrote: | | Whatever happened to all the gloves they made out of them? |
The records and specimens might be found here. From Wikipedia:
Archives
The legacy of the HBC has been maintained in part by the detailed record-keeping and archiving of material by the company. Before 1974, the records of the HBC were kept in the London office headquarters. The HBC opened an archives department to researchers in 1931. In 1974, Hudson's Bay Company Archives (HBCA) were transferred from London and placed on deposit with the Manitoba archives in Winnipeg. The company granted public access to the collection the following year.
On 27 January 1994, the company’s archives were formally donated to the Archives of Manitoba.
At the time of the donation, the appraised value of the records was nearly $60 million. A foundation, Hudson's Bay Company History Foundation funded through the tax savings resulting from the donation, was established to support the operations of the HBC Archive as a division of the Archives of Manitoba, along with other activities and programs.,[106] More than two kilometers of filed documents and hundreds of microfilm reels are now stored in a special climate-controlled vault in the Manitoba Archives Building.
In 2007, Hudson's Bay Company Archives became part of the United Nations "Memory of the World Programme" project, under UNESCO. The records covered the HBC history from the founding of the company in 1670. The records contained business transactions, medical records, personal journals of officials, inventories, company reports, etc.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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treeswarper
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Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:24 pm |
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It will be interesting to see how they do around here. Although the Cispus area is mostly "second growth" and replanted burn areas, there are pockets of larger trees down river from the Cispus Center area. There is also a bit of civilization in that area. I'm not aware of any chickens, but somebody might have some. My neighbors certainly do.
What is old growth? I'm not sure what the definition is anymore. The defined age has become younger, and then you have people saying that size matters, even though there can be quite a difference in growth in different sites, and you have people defining a whole area meeting characteristics.
We have a huge area of Late Seral Reserves and Riparian Reserves. While the LSR areas can be commercially thinned in order to enhance old growth characteristics riparian reserves are hands off, except for stream enhancement work (falling trees into the drainage for fish habitat). That's all written out and shown on maps as part of the Northwest Forest Plan.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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treeswarper
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Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:30 pm |
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| gb wrote: | | If you don't have data to support your opinion just make baseless claims to blame the study to support your unsupported opinion. |
And therein lies the problem. Humptulips is active in the outdoors and trapping vocations, and actually sees what is occurring. I'd tend to believe what he has posted as he is working with the wildlife folks.
There is truth to be found outside of the formal paper writing system. Unfortunately too many people don't get out everyday in the woods to experience what can and does occur with the animals and vegetation.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
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Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?
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Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:14 pm |
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So I searched on Ebay for Fisher Fur Gloves and all I got were rabbit fur gloves.
I did get some Fisher fur coats. They're kinda spendy and not really my style.
It also raises the question - is Fisher fur still being used (farm raised Fishers?), or is any clothing based on their fur that you find vintage stuff?
I'm just curious what became of all those Fisher fur gloves that must have been sold back in the 1800s and early 1900s. The records of the HBC aren't going to tell me anything about what people did with this stuff after they bought it. I'm curious whether they'd make good ski gloves.
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NacMacFeegle
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| treeswarper wrote: | | gb wrote: | | If you don't have data to support your opinion just make baseless claims to blame the study to support your unsupported opinion. |
And therein lies the problem. Humptulips is active in the outdoors and trapping vocations, and actually sees what is occurring. I'd tend to believe what he has posted as he is working with the wildlife folks.
There is truth to be found outside of the formal paper writing system. Unfortunately too many people don't get out everyday in the woods to experience what can and does occur with the animals and vegetation. |
Correlation does not equal causation. The casual observations of even the most experienced woodsman are not a substitute for peer reviewed scientific study.
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contour5
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contour5
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Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:59 pm |
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Fun Fisher Facts From the Wiki
| Quote: | | In the 1920s, when pelt prices were high, some fur farmers attempted to raise fishers. However, their unusual delayed reproduction made breeding difficult. When pelt prices fell in the late 1940s, most fisher farming ended.
There are stories in popular literature that fishers can flip a porcupine onto its back and "scoop out its belly like a ripe melon."[22] This was identified as an exaggerated misconception as early as 1966.[23] Observational studies show that fishers will make repeated biting attacks on the face of a porcupine and kill it after about 25–30 minutes.
Fishers are more likely to be found in old-growth forests. Since female fishers require moderately large trees for denning, forests that have been heavily logged and have extensive second growth appears to be unsuitable for their needs.
Another factor that fishers select for are forest floors that have large amounts of coarse woody debris. In western forests where fire regularly removes understorey debris, fishers show a preference for riparian woodland habitat.[27][31][32] Fishers tend to avoid areas with deep snow. Habitat is also affected by snow compaction and moisture content.
fishers will attack if they feel threatened or cornered. In one case, a fisher was blamed for an attack on a six-year-old boy.[2][3] In another case, a fisher is believed to be responsible for an attack on a twelve-year-old boy.
Between 1900 and 1940, fishers were threatened with near-extinction in the southern part of their range due to overtrapping and alterations to their habitat. In New England, fishers, along with most other furbearers, were nearly exterminated due to unregulated trapping. Fishers became extirpated in many northern U.S. states after 1930, but were still abundant enough in Canada to maintain a harvest of over 3,000 fishers per year
Trapping resumed in the U.S. after 1962 once numbers had recovered to sufficient numbers. During the early 1970s, the value of fisher pelts soared, leading to another population crash in 1976. After a couple of years of closed seasons, fisher trapping re-opened in 1979 with a shortened season and restricted bag limits. The population has steadily increased since then, with steadily increasing numbers of trapped animals, despite a much lower pelt value
Fishers have been captured live for fur farming, zoo specimens, and scientific research. From 1920–1946, pelt prices averaged about $137 CAN. Since pelts were relatively valuable, attempts were made to raise fishers on farms. Fur farming was popular with other species such as mink and ermine, so it was thought that the same techniques could be applied to fishers. However, farmers found it difficult to raise fishers due to their unusual reproductive cycle. In general, knowledge of delayed implantation in fishers was unknown at the time. Farmers noted that females mated in the spring but did not give birth. Due to declining pelt prices, most fisher farms closed operations by the late 1940s
In some areas, fishers can become pests to farmers when they raid chicken coops. There have been a few instances of fishers preying on cats and small dogs;[61][62][63][64][65][66] but in general, the evidence suggests these attacks are rare. A 1979 study examined the stomach contents of all fishers trapped in the state of New Hampshire; cat hairs were found in only 1 of over 1,000 stomachs.[67] More recent studies in suburban upstate New York and Massachusetts found no cat remains in 24 and 226 fisher diet samples (scat and stomach contents) respectively.[68] While there is popular belief for more frequent attacks on pets, zoologists suggest bobcats or coyote are more likely to prey upon domestic cats and chickens
In 2012, a study conducted by Integral Ecology Research Center, UC Davis, US Forest Service, and the Hoopa Tribe showed that fishers in California were exposed to and killed by anticoagulant rodenticides associated with marijuana cultivation.[69] In this study, 79% of fishers that were tested in California were exposed to an average of 1.61 different anticoagulant rodenticides and four fishers died directly attributed to these toxicants. A 2015 follow-up study building on this data determined that the trend of exposure and mortality from these toxicants increased to 85% |
Plus! Fisher Terrorizes Innocent Family: Boy Attacked!
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Pyrites
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Pyrites
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Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:35 pm |
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Wow. Essentially a substantial portion of a months wage for one pelt. No wonder they were hunted down.
Keep Calm and Carry On?
Heck No.
Stay Excited and Get Outside!
Keep Calm and Carry On?
Heck No.
Stay Excited and Get Outside!
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gb
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gb
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Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:47 am |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | gb wrote: | | If you don't have data to support your opinion just make baseless claims to blame the study to support your unsupported opinion. |
And therein lies the problem. Humptulips is active in the outdoors and trapping vocations, and actually sees what is occurring. I'd tend to believe what he has posted as he is working with the wildlife folks.
There is truth to be found outside of the formal paper writing system. Unfortunately too many people don't get out everyday in the woods to experience what can and does occur with the animals and vegetation. |
And therein lies your problem. If you had been following this thread you would note that Humptulips made the assertion that he thought that Fishers would do better in mixed logged environments. He also asked from where came information that Fishers preferred old growth. That was merely his opinion and not based on fact.
The study I cited clearly contradicts his personal opinion. The study was an eleven year study of Fisher behavior and choice of habitat. I think that trumps his and your opinions.
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cefire
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cefire
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Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:18 am |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | gb wrote: | | If you don't have data to support your opinion just make baseless claims to blame the study to support your unsupported opinion. |
And therein lies the problem. Humptulips is active in the outdoors and trapping vocations, and actually sees what is occurring. I'd tend to believe what he has posted as he is working with the wildlife folks.
There is truth to be found outside of the formal paper writing system. Unfortunately too many people don't get out everyday in the woods to experience what can and does occur with the animals and vegetation. |
Ah, the old "if it's raining right now, there can't be a drought argument" (also see snowball on congressional floor). Well played swarp
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Humptulips
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| gb wrote: | The study I cited clearly contradicts his personal opinion. The study was an eleven year study of Fisher behavior and choice of habitat. I think that trumps his and your opinions.
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But it does not seem to be playing out that way in the reintroductions here in WA nor has it worked out that way on the east coast where fisher have been expanding their range southward. As far as PA I gather.
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