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Historic preservation within Wilderness is and should be: |
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83% |
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Illegal |
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16% |
[ 12 ] |
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Total Votes : 71 |
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RodF Member
Joined: 01 Sep 2007 Posts: 2593 | TRs | Pics Location: Sequim WA |
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RodF
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:30 pm
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After four rounds of public meetings and public comment periods over seven years, Olympic National Park adopted a new General Management Plan / Environmental Impact Statement in 2008. It is Olympic National Park's contract with the American people. It reads:
"Where historic structures or cultural landscapes have been included within designated wilderness, they will be protected and maintained using methods that are consistent with preservation of wilderness character and values and cultural resources requirements. Structures and cultural landscapes listed or eligible for listing in the National Register of Historic Places will be preserved and rehabilitated to retain a high degree of integrity and will be managed in accordance with the Secretary of the Interiors' Standards... The park staff will develop a strategy for the maintenance and preservation of historic structures using the existing list of classified structures and ongoing cultural resource assessments of condition and history." - Record of Decision, Final GMP/EIS, 2008.
Wilderness Watch has now sued Olympic National Park in an attempt to overturn this General Management Plan. They are demanding that Elk Lake Shelter, Canyon Creek Shelter, Bear Camp Shelter, Botten Cabin, Wilder Shelter, and Anderson Pass Shelter (all eligible or listed on the National Register of Historic Places) be removed from the Park. Here is their complaint.
Their complaint is a mix of selective facts and rumors (wherever it reads "on information and belief", a mix of true, false and purely imaginary claims follows). Many of their false claims are about helicopter use.
Although it would have been legal, workers were unable to use tools that had already been airlifted with nearby replacement trail bridges, they had to wait for the same tools to be carried in by pack mules. Helicopter support of historic preservation projects has generally not been permitted out of an abundance of caution to forestall exactly this kind of lawsuit. This has crippled the Park's ability to do restoration and made it a lot more time consuming and expensive. Even though helicopters are used for replacement of prefabricated steel trail bridges, restocking wilderness ranger stations and search and rescue and fire caches, SNOTEL and radio relay sites, wildlife surveys and glacier monitoring, Wilderness Watch does not sue over these activities. They are equally necessary for administration of the area as Wilderness as is preservation of Wilderness historic sites. Few of these routine projects requires an EA or EIS, they can usually be accomplished under categorical exclusion. Not only did the Park not use helicopters for preservation projects as alleged, it would have been legal if even they had. WW's claim is not only false, it is a double standard.
Wilderness Watch alleges the Park intends to rebuild Pelton Creek shelter. Not true: the Park reported the Pelton site was destroyed last year in the Paradise Fire, and has no intention of rebuilding it. More false statements are made about Anderson, Elk Lake, etc.
Shades of Green Mountain Lookout! It survived despite them, now Olympic is their next victim.
"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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NacMacFeegle Member
Joined: 16 Jan 2014 Posts: 2653 | TRs | Pics Location: United States |
Of all the idiotic things to do.......
Aside from obviously being in the wrong, I find it appalling that this group is wasting both theirs and the parks money in an attempt to remove unobtrusive historic structures that are doing no harm whatsoever. Don't they realize that their money, time, and effort is badly needed for conservation and preservation efforts that actually matter? They could be lobbying congress to get more wilderness designated, buying and restoring unprotected lands, or working to fight serious threats to the wilderness such as air pollution and global warming. Throwing a childish fit over a few harmless historic structures is mindbogglingly stupid.
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JVesquire Member
Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 993 | TRs | Pics Location: Pasco, WA |
The poll is a bit of a strawman, isn't it?
ONP already lost one lawsuit on this issue about 10 years ago, didn't they? The reality is that these shelters collapsed and ONP turned a blind eye to activities they knew violated the law when volunteers totally rebuilt them from the ground up. This isn't preservation, it's re-creation.
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cefire Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2010 Posts: 523 | TRs | Pics
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cefire
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:53 pm
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JVesquire wrote: | The poll is a bit of a strawman, isn't it? |
Indeed it is.
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trestle Member
Joined: 17 Aug 2008 Posts: 2093 | TRs | Pics Location: the Oly Pen |
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trestle
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Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:59 pm
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Wilderness Watch = shelter haters
That laws were broken has yet to be established.
"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
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Pyrites Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2014 Posts: 1884 | TRs | Pics Location: South Sound |
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Pyrites
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Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:05 am
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If a third party files as a friend of the court, or some similar legal status, would negotiations require involvement of that third party?
Keep Calm and Carry On?
Heck No.
Stay Excited and Get Outside!
Keep Calm and Carry On?
Heck No.
Stay Excited and Get Outside!
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cefire Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2010 Posts: 523 | TRs | Pics
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cefire
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Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:50 am
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trestle wrote: | Wilderness Watch = shelter haters
That laws were broken has yet to be established. |
To be fair, wilderness and permanent shelters are incompatible concepts.
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Slugman It’s a Slugfest!
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 16874 | TRs | Pics
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Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
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Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:23 pm
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cefire wrote: | trestle wrote: | Wilderness Watch = shelter haters
That laws were broken has yet to be established. |
To be fair, wilderness and permanent shelters are incompatible concepts. |
On what basis do you make this claim? Most people would give some attempt at justifying that comment. It seems that a blanket statement like that could apply to trails, trail signs, campsites, bear wires, any sign that people have ever gone there.
Olympic is a national park, they allow many things that a purist wouldn't like. The purists should go elsewhere, let normal people have a park the way they want it.
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Kim Brown Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 6899 | TRs | Pics
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cefire wrote: | trestle wrote: | Wilderness Watch = shelter haters
That laws were broken has yet to be established. |
To be fair, wilderness and permanent shelters are incompatible concepts. |
No, they are not. It has long been decided via lawsuits, not legislation, that human activity is a part of wilderness. I think that's where the confusion is. The Wilderness Act says one thing; subsequent law shows otherwise.* Unless a person carries around that long list of those suits and the outcome, but reads only the actual Act, it would seem shelters are not compatible.
Wilderness Watch knows those suits, and that is the thing that makes people angry when they do this. I haven't read the suit, however.
I recall with the Green Mtn Lookout suit, there were outright lies in that, and in Wilderness Watch's website, which also makes people angry. The judge didn't need the lies to make the judgment; he relied on the truth. So why WW feels the need to lie is probably a issue with the organization leaders.
So I think what would need to happen for clarity is that the Wilderness Act should be updated via legislation, not via lawsuit.
But like I said; I haven't read this new suit.
* If I have time later I'll dig up the Washington Trust for Historical Preservation comment letter re: structures in wilderness. I wrote it. It cites many searchable laws, policies, and lawsuits. But for now, check out this book from the library: It also has good citations.
Also is this publication from National Parks Service re: how to manage wilderness in NPS lands, and has good information re: structures in wilderness. There's a "toolbox" for wilderness management in wilderness.net's website
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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RodF Member
Joined: 01 Sep 2007 Posts: 2593 | TRs | Pics Location: Sequim WA |
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RodF
Member
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Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:45 pm
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JVesquire wrote: | ONP already lost one lawsuit on this issue about 10 years ago, didn't they? The reality is that these shelters collapsed and ONP turned a blind eye to activities they knew violated the law when volunteers totally rebuilt them from the ground up. This isn't preservation, it's re-creation. |
No, the previous lawsuit challenged very different proposed actions.
No, volunteers did not rebuild any of the shelters in question in either case, NPS employees did all the work (which varied on each shelter from simple replacement of roof shakes, to replacement of broken roof stringers, to replacement of some logs in the walls, as necessary).
And no, preservation can require reconstruction. One example is Fort Clatsop, another example is Alcove House in Bandelier Wilderness:
Another would be if Falls Shelter in Olympic NP were reconstructed (it was burned down by arsonists, right after Wilderness Watch's last lawsuit).
JVesquire wrote: | The poll is a bit of a strawman, isn't it? |
I sincerely believe it is directly on point.
"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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Kim Brown Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 6899 | TRs | Pics
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RodF wrote: | And no, preservation can require reconstruction. |
Yes; and this is specifically addressed in the Keeping it Wild management guide.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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JVesquire Member
Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 993 | TRs | Pics Location: Pasco, WA |
Nah, it's a pretty histrionic poll. The only answer is that either you are for historic preservation or against it in wilderness. There's no option to say you are for it if proper techniques that don't harm the wilderness character are used, such as no helicopters, power tools, etc.
Personally, I'd rather not have shelters maintained. ONP has enough work to go around without spending staff resources on maintaining shelters in the backcountry. But, I can see this is valuable to some people. If they want to spend private resources to fund it, and follow proper wilderness management principles, go for it. I suspect that last part, wilderness management principles, is where we disagree. Which is why I think your poll is a fallacy.
From your post a few years ago, Rod, it is apparent that these shelters have completely collapsed and been totally rebuilt. What's the point?
https://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7994695
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Logbear Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 497 | TRs | Pics Location: Getchell. Wash |
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Logbear
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Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:04 pm
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Quote: | Generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable. |
Quote: | Has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation. |
Are the pictures of the new rebuilt structures real pictures, or have they been photo-shopped in an attempt by Wilderness Watch to make their case?
It's hard to believe that a metal roof on Bear Camp Shelter would be "substantially unnoticeable", or "primitive" or "affected primarily by the forces of nature". And the picture of the other shelter looks like the logs are actually big dowels. The kind you get with a "log house kit".
I agree with JVesquire. The poll doesn't allow for other answers like these.
Historic preservation within Wilderness is Illegal and should be legal . Or...
Historic preservation within Wilderness is legal and should be illegal.
Or...Historic preservation within wilderness is legal, provided the preservation is "substantially unnoticeable", or "primitive" or "affected primarily by the forces of nature", and should be legal. This answer would get my vote.
On a purely practical note. A metal roof is really noisy when it rains hard or hails. I think a shake roof would have been better. Then again the metal roof will last a really long time because it's not very affected by the forces of nature.
“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
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graywolf Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 808 | TRs | Pics Location: Sequim |
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graywolf
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Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:23 pm
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I'm curious because I really don't know the answers. So, this group is against shelters - are they against any sign of human activity, such as maintained trails, bridges, etc? If so, are they okay with people walking anywhere they want, such as across alpine meadows, so long as no one is maintaining a trail there?
The only easy day was yesterday...
The only easy day was yesterday...
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Kim Brown Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 6899 | TRs | Pics
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Unless things have changed; they are even against bridges in wilderness. They commented against the replacement of the Skyline bridge over the Suiattle at the PCT after it was wiped out in 2003, and it wasn't because of a potential helo crop, it was because it was a bridge. They do not feel it appropriate that USGS install seismic equipment on volcanos in wilderness.
Check this policy guideline out on their website re: trails. If this was the same used for the Skyline Bridge (I don't know that it was in effect then or if this is newer), even using this guide, which says bridges may be OK occasionally, a bridge over the Suiattle at the PCT was not deemed necessary; and if a bridge over the Suiattle at the PCT is not deemed necessary, no bridge is.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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